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No. 156276

I have come to the point in my life where I am really struggling not to be entirely against men.

I understand there are good men out there, but 90% of the good men seem to just be gay men who are capable of actually respecting women are humans and not walking fleshlights who sometimes share their thoughts.

The primary reasons I hate men is almost entirely due to their sexuality and the accompanying behaviors. Whenever I express my feelings on these issues, I'm more or less met with, "THIS IS HOW MEN ARE, GET OVER IT." Or, "WELL THAT's YOUR FAULT FOR ONLY INTERACTING WITH BAD MEN AND NOT GOOD ONES." ???

It just seems like what they're really asking me to do is be fine with the fact that men will view women as sexual objects before anything else.

I've had relationships with "good guys" who treat me personally with a lot of respect, and even then, I have to put up with them being inappropriate/offensive/having horrible boundaries at some point about other women. Even just the constant ogling or flipping though softcore porn on Instagram at any time of the day. It makes me sick.

The last time I tried talking to a man about this, he claimed I was "immature" about sex. Then he wanted to try persuading me that this is all about having failed relationships- which ridiculous because that's not the only capacity in which I interact with men. And it's not just me, I constantly see a lot of hurtful behavior by men towards my friends, my sisters, etc.

No. 156293

Why do you wanna stop hating them? Peace of mind?

No. 156294

>How to stop hating men?
You don't. You can hate most men/men as a class while still acknowledging there are some good men left, but they're very rare and if you can't find one, I think it's better to stay alone. I mean, according to studies 98% of men watch porn. That's 2% of men left, and even if you meet one of them, it's not guaranteed you will be attracted to him and see him as bf material for other reasons. So yeah, it's hard. Men won't change.

No. 156296

What I feel towards men isn't hate but I've become somewhat avoidant of them because I just don't want male attention. I probably get more unwanted male attention now at 31 than I ever got at 21. I did move to a rural area for the first time though. Men here are way too full on in their approach. I'm gay but I can't even say that to them because it's also a big anti-gay area. All I really want from men is to be left alone the moment that I say "look I'm not interested"

On the upside I managed to discuss issues like that with my dad for the first time lately and I had low expections of him but he seemed to understand the anxiety that it gives a woman to be cold approached by pushy randos. I didn't think he'd get it and I fully expected him to tell me to 'be flattered by it' But he didn't. That's something I guess.

No. 156297


Because I don't like being angry all the time. So maybe peace of mind?

I've been repeatedly told this is a "me" problem.

No. 156299


You don't think a single man could be changed? You're probably right.

It sucks because I've always noticed men will leave you alone if you're in a relationship with another man. So I do like having a relationship.

It's especially helpful in work situations where you're forced to work with men. If you have a picture with your boyfriend on your desk and they've met him at an event, then they know to leave you alone.

No. 156302

Easy just stop:
>reading news
>going outside
>dating men
>consuming true crime
>consuming male-made entertainment
The only way to stop hating them is to purge them from all facets of your life. It’s the only way to stop noticing men’s bullshit.

No. 156303

I don't know. As a whole, I do hate men too kek but not actively/in a way that makes me angry all the time. I guess I avoid men that aren't my boyfriend (who, when he annoys me or acts like A Man, I correct his behavior and do take the time to explain what his issues are), and have luckily made friends with two straight men who aren't awful which gives me hope. I talk to them about male issues, and they give me their perspective of being raised and socialized as men and how they've been able to overcome it.

Otherwise, I spend a lot of time with women so I don't have to think about men a lot. Not having to think about them helps. I think of their shitty behavior as pathetic and laugh at it, and with them being below me, they just don't pose as much of a threat that leads to a fear/hatred in my day to day life. Of course when I'm faced with a man or the reality of how dogshit they are, it enrages me, but I can talk to other women about it and know that I know better, that all men are awful. I don't know if this will heop. Tldr, avoid them entirely and laugh at their patheticness. It takes away the active hatred and will probably help you not think about them as often, and they don't deserve to live in your head.

No. 156309

> I've always noticed men will leave you alone if you're in a relationship with another man
Nta but I get so many creeps at work that I'm thinking about buying a silver band to wear on my wedding finger. My hands are very visible when I'm dealing with people.

Anyone tried that and noticed a difference?

No. 156310

It's impossible to avoid shitty men in your life but I would second other anon and say focus on good relationships with women in your life and other things that doesn't involve scrotes, for the sake of your blood pressure.

No. 156311

>2 hours ago
Of course this was made after ot was locked

No. 156314


It actually does. Men are afraid of other men.

No. 156330

More like men respect other men's property more than your "no".

No. 156337

I guess I'm lucky to be really bland looking, as men, especially strangers, tend to leave me alone. I don't think I hate men, but I also sort of just preemptively gave up on ever trying to change them. The only man currently in my life is my father, and I love him, but he has a lot of annoying ManTM habits that I can't even begin to discuss with him, because he's a drama queen. Still, our relationship is too important for me to burn bridges over, and his intentions aren't bad.
But when it comes to dating, I honestly don't ever want to be with another man, unless he somehow falls into that 0.000001% that somehow isn't pornsick, arrogant and manipulative, because I don't want to fight another adult in my everyday private life.

No. 156341

same anon! but i dont even like my father and we are not on speaking terms, which is for the best really

No. 156343


I somewhat like my father. He's extremely anti-porn (or anything addictive) and even though some of his beliefs about women are old-fashioned, they're more along the lines of going out of his way to assist the women in his life (wife, mother, sisters, daughters) than they are demeaning women as incapable.

He also has a lot of respect for women in what they go through with their bodies- especially if they have children.

That said, he is a bit of an arrogant man-child who can't do very simply things for himself (laundry, cooking, etc) and he expects his wife to fulfill some of those duties. He also thinks he knows better than everyone else.

Sort of balances out when you consider the first part, I guess. The first part though has made me have much higher expectations for men, so dating has been very disappointing.

No. 156344

>he claimed I was "immature" about sex
What the fuck does that even mean?

No. 156355

I guess being bothered out by men mentally fucking every woman they find remotely attractive is immature, because it's the same reaction a grossed out child would have?

That's what I assumed anyway.

No. 156358

Did he mean immature about the sexes or about sex in the way you described? Like men mentally fucking women? He shamed you because you said it's not normal for men to think of all women as a potential sex partner?

I can understand where he's coming from if it's the first thing (I don't agree at all, I just get why he'd say it), but if its the latter, he's just a creep. That's not what a child's reaction would be because children wouldn't even know what to think of that. Children see people as people. Women do too, but adult women have the mental capacity to understand why that's fucking nasty.

No. 156370


Immature about sex in the way I described, not the sexes.

No. 156389

Before I stopped reading reddit i read a thread on AskMen asking what the best thing about getting older was, and 90% of the responses were 'not being constantly led around by my dick is pretty nice'.
Maybe once a month around the time I ovulate I notice I make a stupid decision based on being horny. I couldn't imagine feeling so braindead and compulsive all the time, I would feel subhuman. Obviously not all problems with men's behaviour are due to sex drive, but imagine if all men's libido was suppressed for a month.

My best male friend recently seemed to confess some sort of unethical sexual behavior to me. It was vague but he seemed incredibly stressed about getting 'called out' or 'cancelled'. He had a slightly desperate look on his face as he told me that he felt like it was ok to not make any sort of move towards resolution because 'the guilt i feel daily is punishment enough??'
I didn't ask the specifics because I didn't want to know, but i made it very clear that wallowing in guilt wasn't any sort of help to anyone he'd hurt, and it was false and selfish of him to settle on this conclusion. It didn't seem to be the answer he wanted. It was so fucked up to see how his dick was still the most important thing in the situation: presumably it influenced him to do whatever he did, and he was worried about being publicly humiliated and cockblocked after.
It really cemented the realisation that any man I interact with could be a rapist. The man who raped me went on to have other relationships, and statistically, I've almost certainly been with somebody else's rapist. How do you even begin to solve that problem?

Apparently this is a pretty common thing, but I've also had several men I didn't know well confess to me at parties stories of abuse, 'ambiguous' consent, or other fucked up ways they've hurt women. It's clear they felt some sort of way about it, but they thought that seeking absolvement from a random woman was the way to go about it. Women are interchangeable to them. Anyone telling them they're not a bad person is enough to soothe their guilt.

I do know one man who seems completely immune to predatory influences, it gives me hope.

No. 156391

Do you think this is just how men are destined to be no matter what? Is there no helping them to be better people? Or is it just so impossible to constantly struggle against your libido like that…

It feels so hopeless when you realize how many men are like this.

No. 156392

>but imagine if all men's libido was suppressed for a month.
And yet men get desperate when their libido lowers, avoiding medication like finasteride (for baldness)and saying that it makes their dicks fall off. They don't want to stop.
>any man I interact with could be a rapist
>I've almost certainly been with somebody else's rapist.
Honestly, imo every single women should read these lines and think about them deeply.

No. 156396

Hey! I kind of get what you're saying, I've dealt with this myself. Ever since I was a child, and up until my mid-teens, my self-worth was dependent on appearing attractive or desirable to older men due to being sexually abused as a child. Of course, once I grew out of this unhealthy mindset I began to resent ALL older men, and to an extent every man; I thought, at some point, they were likely to succumb to degeneracy just like the other older man who'd abused me. However, this is an unhealthy mindset as well and it's good you seem to be recognizing it.

Some people who have/had this mindset didn't have good male role models growing up or faced a severe trauma committed by, of course, a male. This may or may not apply to you, but on the off chance it does, I'd like to describe my experience and give some advice: what really set me free from this toxic belief was allowing myself to grieve for the past sufferings I've faced at the hands of my abuser. At some point, I kind of cut off the correlation between the bad behavior and the fact my abuser was a male (does that make sense?). It helps to think of the bad behaviors as not something intrinsic to men, but as something anyone is capable of doing but should be viewed as, nonetheless, harmful.

If you still think men are intrinsically evil, a good counter would be, well, children. Evil, in most cases, doesn't come naturally to a child. It has to be put in their minds and groomed to an unhealthy extent. A good guardian would put the child's wellbeing above all, and teach them healthy and good values, however, a bad guardian may either encourage bad behaviors, commit bad behaviors onto the child (with or without remorse, mind you), or an outside influence may do these things. This is all subjective, but there is a somewhat baseline for good/bad values, at least in the modern world.

Men, especially the men you see in social media, are encouraged to do certain bad behaviors (porn-watching, sexism, etc.) more than women, and this could also potentially fuel your hate. My advice for this would be to cut off these negative influences and simply focus on the men in your life now. It may take some time (and that's completely fine!), but when you see a man, try to judge him completely neutrally without any bias or influence affecting your judgments. If he seems nice, don't allow yourself to be scared off or overly negative; just judge him on your own impressions, not any outsider ones. Then, if he does something that makes you feel bad in any shape or form, you're completely in the right to cut him off or even cut him up. Hope my advice somewhat helped, but feel free to disregard it if it doesn't apply to you.

No. 156405

I’d say pick your battles and try not to be hypocritical, best approach for your peace of mind. Of course stay the fuck away from violent, unstable, openly misogynistic men, that’s a given. I think society tries to make us accept so many unacceptable behaviors from men, women sometimes snap and go the opposite way and start having unreasonable expectations they themselves couldn’t fulfill. I am looking for a partner to go through life and grow with, not a perfect ideal of a man. Also don’t play the number’s game or try to find statistics about anything (except crime statistics or something serious). Way too much sex-based psychological studies are full of shit and trying to push an agenda. Otherwise you’ll convince yourself every man around you is an undercover pedophile by looking at studies of men trying to justify their own depraveness by saying that’s it is just natural male behavior. Bullshit. Just be attentive and be uncompromising on stuff that matters to you.

I also have to say that I almost never deal with unwanted male attention, despite having a lot of male friends and living in a big city. I don’t know if that’s because I am unconventional looking or because I just behave in a way that makes it so, but usually I only deal with male attention in parties/bars/clubs or when I initiate it. So I guess I am already 99%less pissed by guys that many other women. Also I have a great father and good male role models in my life, if they are depraved in any way they’ve hidden it well so it basically haven’t mattered in my education.

I personally am fine with a guy that is appreciative of beautiful women and flirtatious, as I know I am with beautiful men. I am fine with a guy that doesn’t know how to do a few domestic tasks (as I am shit at doing some too, we need to find a balance) provided that he’s not a man child. I really like straightforwardness, to the point that some women might find inappropriate or uncomfortable.

I draw a hard line at watching porn, simping on Insta, fucking close friends and creating drama and I avoid men that are virgins, men that don’t like going out, and men trying to douse their reasoning in philosophical bullshit.

No. 156407

>At some point, I kind of cut off the correlation between the bad behavior and the fact my abuser was a male (does that make sense?)
But like 90% of pedophiles and rapists are male. There is a correlation.
>It helps to think of the bad behaviors as not something intrinsic to men, but as something anyone is capable of doing but should be viewed as, nonetheless, harmful
Except male dominance, sexual agression or "at least" sexual coercion is present across all hominid species, including humans. It's naive to think male humans don't have those innate tendencies. Society can suppress some of those urges, but you can't eliminate them completely. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.
>If you still think men are intrinsically evil, a good counter would be, well, children
Yeah, I've seen it happen many times. Pre-pubescent boys can be innocent and cute, but once the puberty hits, there's no going back. You talk like you're the first woman in history who thought she can teach little boys to be good men who don't see women as sex toys. You have no idea how many people tried and failed. It's been going on for 10 thousand years, sigh. You haven't been considered a male property since like 100, but not entirely, because marital rape wasn't even considered as rape in the 70s. Right. Men are unhappy when they can't go to a war, rape local women and wreck shit, so at least they have to jerk off to porn now. The majority does it. Women who are aware of this have to actively and constantly delude themselves into thinking men, as a whole, can be changed.

No. 156410

I'm curious to know if you consider stereotypical female traits like nurturance, empathy, low aggressiveness/meekness and sexual passivity to be natural and hardwired or to be socially induced.

No. 156413

It's both. Testosterone does make people more aggressive.

No. 156418

So to which degree do you think these stereotypical female traits are inchangeable? If you're >>156407 you seem to think the way these behaviors manifest in men can't be changed (despite providing examples of how they've changed in the past hundred years, and I'd add it's a mistake to think the treatment of women has been inchanging or uniform before the modern era, but that's a topic for another day).

No. 156422

Male dominance being natural doesn't mean females are naturally always passive. There's no dualism in nature. There's only sexual conflict. For example, ducks have high levels of forced copulation (some males even rape females to death), so female ducks and geese have evolved complex genitalia to thwart unwelcome mating attempts. If we look at hominids, females of bonobo chimpanzee (we share 99.6% of our DNA) form unions to protect themselves from male agression. Yes, they're physically weaker and less agressive than males, but they don't just passively take male abuse. Males are exploitative but that doesn't mean females are content with being exploited. Dawkins wrote about it in the Selfish Gene. More bold geneticists (Bryan Sykes) openly call males "parasites" kek.

There's one thing that interests me though. Being bigger and more aggressive alone doesn't make you more rapey. Female hyenas are very fascinating because they're bigger and more aggressive than males, they even have enlarged clits that look like penises, and even the strongest male hyena is still lower in the hierarchy than the weakest female, and yet female hyenas don't rape each other or males. They're more violent than males in every aspect except sexual. Their genitals also evolved to make mating harder for the males. It's physically impossible for the male to rape a female hyena.

As for stuff like nurturing. Yeah, I think most (not all) women are naturally more nurturing simply because our bodies evolved to carry the offspring. Doesn't mean we should be passive though. I personally have zero interest in caring for others, especially children, and I was always more interested in objects than people, but I'm an autist (I'm not saying a woman has to be autistic in order to not be nurturing, it's just more likely), and I acknowledge that women, generally, choose professions associated with interpersonal relationships, nursing, teaching, humanities, and men, generally, choose professions associated with technology and o b j e c t s, manual labor etc. At the same time, I think even women who get into STEM are often chased away by the unfriendly atmosphere (some moids are chimping out with their boys-only-club territorialism) and I think there would be more women in STEM fields if moids behaved differently. But even then, I doubt the ratio would be 50:50, because most women are not naturally drawn to this. Studies actually show that the more egalitarian the country, the greater the gap. Scandinavian countries had many initiavites to put more women in STEM, but the ratio never shifted. Socialization plays a role but genes are responsible for more than a half of our personality and interests, unfortunately. Those who don't fit it (men not interested in traditionally manly stuff and women not interested in traditionally femininine stuff) will always feel left out.
Imo the only way to end sexual conflict would be to stop breeding. There's no other way out. There will never be true "equality", because we are too biologically different. I'm not interested in playing this game anyway.

No. 156425

Not trying to argue or anything, but I really hate when people use percentage of shared genome to make comparisons. We literally share more than half of our DNA with bananas, so to the layman (I'm counting myself in this) this 0.4% difference is hard to interpret.

No. 156426

Realize that there is an equal amount of shitty men and women. They are simply shitty in different ways. For example one thing that drives me up the wall about other women is passive aggressive behavior and the compulsive need to shit on other women and suck up to men in the process because they have daddy issues which have resulted in a massive, joy sucking black hole where their heart should be. Leave the house and you will realize it is a society wide problem. It is no easier to get along with other women than it is to get along with men. We live in a society that rewards people for being raging, lying narcissists all around.

No. 156427

Yes, thank you so much anon. Women need to understand and really internalize all of this. It's not all just cultural toxic masculinity and other socialization, both sexes aren't somehow magically equally shitty. We are groups of people, with many drives and urges the other group doesn't really share to the same degree, of course it shows in our respective social behaviours.

A lot of evo psych is crud, but it can't really be denied that the fundamental assumptions hold. In any species, the behaviour that fares best in terms of reproduction will become more frequent. We may be mistaken about which strategies did fare best historically and how much plasticity there is in human psychology, but not really about this basic premise, nor about the strategies differing quite a bit between sexes. Based on the current research, the general state of the world, and e.g. crime statistics across cultures, it does seem that men have been rewarded for aggression and sexual violence so consistently throughout history that a lot of these urges have been ingrained in them.

Civilization helps them curb these incentives by building stronger incentives to counter them, i.e. you go to jail or suffer social consequences if you act on them. Some degree of plasticity from socialization also seems definitely to exist, it's just not strong enough to counter the general tendencies on a populational level. I don't think any amount of socialization would keep us safe, unfortunately. That's why it pays to be wary around men, even if many of them individually turn out to be good.

No. 156428

>We live in a society that rewards people for being raging, lying narcissists all around.
I agree but the risk of me being raped, killed or just physically abused by other women is not even half as high as the risk of being assaulted by a man. Also, when I walk the street when it's dark, the presence of a strange woman will either comfort me or remain neutral, but a strange man? I have to stay alert.

No. 156430

Unironically seek medical help.
You show obsessive behavior.

No. 156433

Are radfems (?) unironically going back to thinking career choices are due to sex? Is that the alternative to liberal feminism? No solution, let's just pray the men away?

First, the use of timescale in these messages is a bit funny. We get compared to chimpanzees (last common ancestor : 6 million years ago) when modern humans date back to 200 000 years ago. What we can reasonably know about history is about 10 000 years old, before that, archelogists have a hard time drawing any strong conclusions as to the organisation of societies because everything is basically gone. Any object or painting found has dozen of competing explanations behind it. But, looking at today's "egalitarian" societies like Sweden (which dates back like 50 years max…)should inform us on how women naturally choose "traditional" careers? For a big chunk of our known history the traditional career of a woman was being a peasant and working in fields all day. I wonder how us women are coping with not doing our God-given career choices. Thank God EvoPsych, one of the most controversial fields of psychology and social sciences, and its totally proven "fundamental assumptions" is here to give a neat explanation that is basically the same thing as the 19th century explanation of how men and women behave. Brilliant.)

Call me deluded if you want, but as separation is never going to work, I see your position as very cowardly. Why change society? Going from fighting for equality and respect to being seen as literal perpetual victims in need for protection from poor males that can't help but be hapless brutes? Fuck that. They're are plenty of men that aren't violent, abusers and rapists, so what does your theories mean for them? Are they just more restrained, level-headed and responsible than the law-abiding women who don't get those "urges" to kill and rape? Wouldn't that sound like something we've heard before?

No. 156436

I'm not a radfem kek. Radfems still believe in socialization.
The rest of your post sounds like a giga cope. Non violent men still benefit from the existence of violent men. And even if your man treats you "right", you have no idea how he behaves when he's only with other men or how he treated other women in his life. No one is denying that a single man can be ok (although even he benefits from abusive men's existence because the bar is so low), but to think you can change men as a class, change the majority of men etc., is naively obtuse. I won't even mention porn shit.

Oh and the other "family members" are usually sons kek. In UK for example, only 6% of women are killed by strangers. The rest are partners, sons, step-sons etc. Now I'm waiting for something very arrogant like
>pfff but most women survive! Men kill only 50,000 women a year, why would I care? Just find a good nigel lol

No. 156437

So do you really think that literlly no man ever is not guilty of sexual violence ? Because that sounds like a convenient excuse not to rebut any points I've made.

You sound more like someone who doesn't care about domestic violence, because you don't seem to think anything can be done to better the situation…

No. 156442

You're putting words in my mouth for the second time and I'm kinda tired of this. I didn't say no man ever is not guilty of sexual violence, but that mediocre men benefit from the existence of violent or shitty men. Also
>most men don't rape uwu
Well, I can't tell you how many times I've heard from "normie" men that if porn and prostitition didn't exist, there would be more rapes. And those men weren't 4chan users who spend days and nights in their basements. Some were "good" husbands and dads.
>because you don't seem to think anything can be done to better the situation…
I mean, creating social programs for abused women is good. Educating women on how to spot the red flags is good. But it's just treating the symptoms, there's no cure. Men who rape and beat women should be simply killed off imo, eliminated from the gene pool, but that obviously won't happen. Separatism on a global scale also won't happen, but a small minority of women can practice separatism and eliminate men from their life. I care about those who want to be free the most, less about those who cling to the proverbial cock. And even if you're with a man, the least you can do is to never breed with him and not to continue the cycle through creating another oppressor or another girl to victimize (you know, those feminists of the 70s failed to raise good, non pornsick men, and the millenial and zoomer women will fail even harder kek). I know two women who are in straight couples and who decided not to breed with their men, but it's rare to meet a guy who will be ok with this and who won't cheat on you sooner or later. Most men are egoists.

I really wonder how do social-constructionists think socialization started? How is that men CROSS-CULTURALLY created this great conspiracy to subjugate women?

No. 156447

Idk anon, if you’re aware that men are shit how come you can’t be aware that women are shit? Are you telling me with a straight face that women are all sweet? I’ve been shat on by both to the point I stopped hating groups or genders but rather glorify individuals.

No. 156448

You actually make sense anon but I don’t agree with you that all women should stop breeding, because there’s still some women who can pick out normal men to breed with, why should we let the few women that can date normal non abusive men go extinct? I am aware that I shouldn’t breed though.

No. 156450

I used to be wary of breeding because I was so afraid I would have daughters, and I knew I could not protect them.

As I got older I became just as afraid of having a son because one day he would become a man.

To the anon who said that children are innocent- they are not innocent, they are naive. My nieces and nephews do objectively shitty things all day long- children are narcissists however it’s a necessary phase in their development that they will grow out of with proper parenting.

That said, my nephews are noticeably worse than my nieces. By the time they were 2, they were already delighting in breaking/hitting things and trying to assert dominance over other children.

No. 156455

>As I got older I became just as afraid of having a son because one day he would become a man.
This reminded me of a pet peeve I have lately. I watch a lot of true crime vids on youtube and the comments underneath always have shit like women with usernames like 'logans mom'. So under a video about a typical serial killer raping and murdering women (and only women) they'll talk about how they hate knowing their son is growing up in such a cruel world where he might fall victim to such awful people…. ah yes please make it about your son somehow falling victim when it's a hetero male killing women and that's also 99percent of the cases featured on these shows??

Don't worry about the actual victims or share any thoughts for them. Don't worry about your son growing up to be the violent one either. Just make it all about him. Even the usernames are retarded 'kevins mommy' and shit like that, ffs.

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