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Yeah I'm totally with you OP, I can't seem to be able to keep any female friends.
I had a best friend for a few years when I was a kid. We were like sisters and did absolutely everything together. She dropped me once something better came along. I think I sabotage all my relationships now because I expect them to be as good as that one, I think I'm always going to long for that kind of close friendship again.
Then when I was a teen I was bullied but I rationalised it because I thought it was better than being alone. I went to a girls' school and it was just a whole mess of bitchiness (I think that's the true nature of girls, they revert back to that catty personality when there are no guys around to be on their best behaviour for). Every day was like something from an OTT teen drama, girls starting vicious feuds with each other over petty stuff purely out of boredom, they just can't have nice things. Girls would pretend to be friendly with me and talk about me the minute my back was turned, it fucked me up a lot. Then throughout college I never made any proper friends. Just "that person I go to the library with sometimes" or people who only want me as a companion when they go out clubbing.
The only good, long lasting friendship I've ever had was with my boyfriend but I still crave a female friend. Many of my friends stopped talking to me after I started going out with him out of sheer jealousy. I get really jealous myself when I see him interacting with his friends and having the kind of normal relationship I'd love to have with a girl (they have sleepovers, make inside jokes, go on nights out together, have DMCs…) but just isn't possible for us. He invites me to hang out with them regularly but it kind of makes me feel like Suzy lol.
I'm going to start working soon and I really fear being lonely because I never made any friends in school or college. I'm afraid I might only have my boyfriend as a friend for the rest of my life and never have someone to do girly things with me.
I've gone through 'stages' of having mostly male friends and mostly female friends. From what I've personally seen and heard from other women, this is some of the defining factors in how easy is for you to make other female friends -
1) If you're bisexual or a lesbian, straight women might judge you and think you're just trying to get in their pants.
2) Gender nonconformity - I don't mean like just wearing men's clothes or having short hair (that too, though, I guess) but not shaving or not wearing makeup can make women who do feel…threatened or othered. It's weird but common.
3) Interests and career. If either are male dominant and typically 'masculine', you might have a harder time making female friends through them. That one is a given, though.
4) Your demeanor and personality. If you seem judgemental, cold, closed off, or plain rude, it's going to be much harder to make friends (of any gender, but particularly women, since men usually let that kind of stuff slide). Also, avoid being 'brutally honest', it makes you seem like an asshole to everyone, not just women - I had a friend with that problem and writing this made me think of her lol.
Jealousy, competition, entitlement.
Lots of girls want to believe they're superior to other girls.
As if every thread on this website doesn't dissolve into catty bitching at some point.>>60949
Well I have a few theories but they're all borderline /pol/ memes.
I find white women to be petty and cattier than black women, but to each their own experience.>>60950>>60949
"I'm not like other girls~" is a real mindset.
Oh man that last one. That's my biggest issue. I'm just not as bubbly as other girls so people get it wrong or I just can't keep up with them.
The only friend I have is my bf at the moment. Sucks but I got used to it. It's possible to make new friends, even if you're older, you just have to find someone to click with but also be willing to put yourself out there.
Well, I guess I abandon ship if the guy starts acting weird and treating me a certain way for being female or thinks Im flirting with him. I get on with my guy friends because theyre easygoing and not socially retarded.
Its hard to form stronger bonds with people irl in general though if theyre young, like I only have 2 close guy friends I can have in depth conversations with and I met them both on tumblr in high school many years ago so we stuck lol. It helps if you can tell the person is openminded and wants to talk about serious things more than joking wll the time
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Yes, it's possible, but only with effort to maintain a healthy friendship.
What you (OP) are seeing in these other girls' relationships is not healthy. Short, in-your-face friendships tend to mean that one or both girls are using each other for something: status, money, connections, etc. It's either a one-sided friendship or completely fake. This sort of thing has been normalized though so I can see how you'd think it's typical.
As far as 'hating each other out of nowhere' goes, there's always a reason. Chances are they don't wanna talk about it or they're childish, petty people who probably can't maintain a healthy romantic relationship either. Stay far away from them.
The problem with girl friendships is that most are short-lived. You have to maintain the relationship. Reply to those texts. Don't cancel plans b/c you feel lazy. Be a considerate friend. Ignoring those simple things leads to one person fading out of the friendship. That's why they're short-lived.
That wall-of-text said, yes, it's worth it. Good luck finding someone you click with, I'm still looking too.
GIRL I am not lying. Hand to god, the drama just makes itself with them. (That said, I don't hate white girls. Just those who make the fake whiny voices to talk.)>>60999
The coldest insult I ever got in school (from an -asian- girl) : "You're just thin cause your parents are poor, not 'cause you work out." IN GYM. Yes, I've carried that L for years.>>61018
This was a nice post. I agree with it.
Haha oh yeah, the queen bee in my grade once called my fucking landline, asked my mom to talk to me, and proceeded to ask me to hang myself "do everyone a favor".
But that insult she gave you about poor parents was rough, she was cold, dude. Brutal.
>always seems girls are super close with each other for a little while then they end up hating each other out of nowhere
The only time I've seen this happen is when two girls meet and find like 2 or 3 things in common and go "OMG BESTIES!!" and then start spending all their time together, suddenly moving in with each other or something crazy like that, and basically moving the relationship too fast for sustainability.>>61018
is right. i think people tend to view friendships and romantic relationships differently, but I think you should treat them mostly the same, as in you have to be considerate of the other person and put in the time and effort to make them a part of your life.
There are different types of girls' friendship. I'm gonna blogpost now, if anyone is interested in the dynamics based on some random anon's experiences.
I used to have a very close BFF friend - we were, like, exclusive to each other, and were jealous about other friends. Super close friendship, same interests, quirks, type of mindset. Then we parted schools and gradually fell out of friendship - I guess with the different environment we were changing/maturing differently, and it was so painfully obvious we lost our precious alikeness when we hung out. Seemed like she were getting annoyed with me, and she did something that wasn't exactly malicious but left a very bad taste in my mouth… we didn't argue, just said our goodbyes and… never talked ever again. Because I was hurt, I didn't want to be the first one to speak up, and now it's been 3 years lol. I still miss her sometimes, but I believe it's more like longing for that kind of close girlXgirl relationship.
In high school, I've had a friend who I /tolerated/. We just paired up not be alone during breaks and to have someone to sit with/exercise with on PE. Like I enjoyed her company at school, but on the long term she was insufferable and we would hang out IRL like once every few months, and it was me who avoided it by all cost. Simply because I couldn't stand her, she was super exhausting, I won't go in details. After graduation we met up and had a talk about us. She asked if I think we were friends; I said yes. She replied that for her, we weren't. Because we were parting ways, we had a very honest talk, like I've never had with anyone before; she asked for the hardest truth and I delivered.
Now, after two years, we sometimes talk online.
I have a female friend who's not my BFF nor a shallow friend. She moved when we were kids and then we randomly talked years after and found out we were on the same wavelenght. Both in new places, both with no friends, misunderstood. We would meet up for summers and have those manic pixie dream adventures recalling which keeps me going sometimes, tbh. Our bond was almost spiritual, and it kind of still is, even though we meet up less and usually with other friends/significant others. We can stop talking for months, and then call each other and shit's still cool. Whatever happens, we are each other 'primary humans', no matter how much time passes. But on the other hand, we don't have this typical girlXgirl friendship with confessions and pouring your soul out. It's weird, because it's such a close bond, but also it's very lacking in important places.
So, I guess girls start to hate on each other in case of #2 - when they form shallow friendships for various reasons. Sometimes they will try to pursue it, act ~BeStiEsSs~ over the top and then bam, drama, because they can't stand each other. I'm sure I would end up like this with friend #2 if I went along with her pursues.
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I used to have two best friends in high school, very close. We stopped talking after I moved despite me attempting to visit all the time, they just gave up I think.. idk. 3 years down the drain.
After I moved I only made one female friend who was way younger than me, and we ended up having a falling out after she sent underage pictures to my not yet bf(she knew I liked him and was going to ask him out). So this left a sour feeling towards making female friends.
Every time I came across a girl who I /think/ I'd get along with great (same interest in hobbies and music) they end up somehow trying to fuck my boyfriend.
I haven't had a female friend in 5 years and it's a real drag when you see other people on facebook or others you follow out having fun and going to cons too. I did make best friends with a guy on 4chan of all places and he's a real great friend but.. it's very lonely having no one irl to hang with. I'm getting to the point in my life where I'm just going to giving up trying to socialize to make friends, and be content with just my animals, my hobbies, online and my partner.
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One girl was in a long term relationship and still tried to get with him.
Finding a female friend at all is hard, let alone a lesbian one who definitely wouldn't go after him.
>>61125>>The only time I've seen this happen is when two girls meet and find like 2 or 3 things in common and go "OMG BESTIES!!"
I've had girls try to suddenly become my bff after literally just meeting 1 minute prior, which makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Once a girl wanted to make "friends" with me, and when I didn't act crazy and OMFG with her, she turned to the girl next to her and she reciprocated. They literally started calling each other "besties" within a few minutes. I mean, I've hit it off with the people I knew would be my best friends after probably a few hours or 1 day hanging out/chatting together, but I don't understand how some people seem so enthusiastic about meeting other human beings lol
These relationships seem incredibly superficial and forced to me, but maybe I'm wrong. Do any other anons have experience with this?
normie stacies are impossible to have a real close friendship with imo.
but i have a lot of very close female friends who are straight-talking and basically good people at heart. i've tried to be friends with bitchy stacies but it never worked out - i thought girls were shit and hopeless during this time, too. is this your experience?
i think if you really want to have close female friends, you sometimes have to look for friends outside of people you'd usually be attracted to talk to - because chances are they're used to being befriended and don't have to work hard/don't know how to be a good friend because it comes too easily.
my perspective idk if it helps
I'm in the same boat anon. I don't want even want any male friends but I still try in case I end up meeting some of their female friends and hit it off, but that never happens because guys are creepy.
I've tried reconnecting with high school friends but it's… eh. Nah. I don't really know what to do.
My core group of female friends are from HS, and we meet up for dinner and drinks sometimes, and mostly just keep in touch via FB chat. We were all awkward nerds in HS (most of them are lowkey fujos) so we were never interested in social climbing, nor were we all very confident in getting men, much less having boyfriends to steal from each other. Now we're all living different enough lives that none of that stuff matters anyway. But we enjoy each other's company sometimes and keep in touch and hang out when we can. We don't have intimate, "soul searching" talks and I wouldn't expect any of them to donate me a kidney, but I'm a bit of a recluse anyway and emotional stuff doesn't rest well with me.
The 1 female friend I made since graduating HS is an online friend. And we're both taken and have different tastes in guys anyway.
I guess if you keep trying to find friends who are very very similar to you already you stand the chance of weird jealousy and power moves, idk, but of all my friends we have enough in common to be friends but some key differences that jealousy and power moves don't even factor in. Idk if this makes sense
>jealous of boyfriend
you make time enough for your friends instead of just being with your boyfriend 24/7, and don't blow off plans just to hang with your boyfriend. if they're arsey after that then you talk to them like people and ask them what their problem is?
>climb social ladder
says more about them if they do that, and sooner or later they get kicked out of the in crowd because of their attitude.
>beyond drunken thing
you follow up with them. if it doesn't go through spend more time with them through mutuals until they feel comfortable enough to hang.
>don't talk to you
why don't you talk to them instead, then?
i don't mean to be rude but maybe it's your anxiety or attitude getting in the way of making friends (not shitting on you, i was the same way during my teens).
yes such women exist. i met my closest female friends through my first art degree and we became such good friends through our shared passion and a love for the community. what kind of circles are you in anon? they sound shallow as heck.
To be fair I did make friends with a girl online who happens to live close who pretty much enjoys the same hobbies as me. We talking about going to all these places to hang out and meet her friends. Then suddenly, for the past two weeks she stopped getting on. I hope everything is okay, but I'm sort of leaning towards that friendship is over.>>61199
I've been told I'm very upfront and honest ;A ; I would enjoy meeting other girls and making more friends. Unfortunately I saw the messages some of those girls sent, I wish it was my paranoia. Why don't you have any fem friends irl?>>61207
It happened a lot 3 years ago, which I don't disagree with you. I mainly wanted to discuss the fault of finding friends is my own.
>>61221>How do you find friends who aren't jealous of your boyfriend
I can never imagine that happening to me, but I guess that's because none of my friends are interested in being in a relationship and neither am I. If any of the things you've mentioned apply to you and your "friends" you need to ditch them asap. Friends are supposed to support each others.>>61224>(most of them are lowkey fujos)
Same for my friend group. It may sound stupid but I don't get along as well with normies as I do with my friends and people I talk to online.
Let this "i cant be friends with other girls~" meme die, for the love of God.
Of course it's possible, you're just undesirable in some aspect or you're socially stunted. That's not the female gender's fault, it's yours.>>61148
This could happen in any kind of friendship. People change and fall apart, people have different motives from the getgo.
This thread reeks of edge girls who only hug out with the boys who wanted to fuck them and wondered why other girls steered clear of their shitty personality and need something to blame.
You reflect the company you keep, anon. If so many of you are having to beat your girlfriends off of your bf with a stick, that says a lot about your personality. I highly doubt your boyfriend is some Adonis that women just can't control themselves around.
This anon >>61228
Most of you sound like you still have a "she wears short skirts, I wear tshirts" mentality. Grow up. I promise you'll find good friends.
Hell, I even have a good bit of female friends, and I've always had a lot of trouble with it because I'm a lesbian and it makes straight girls leery. It's gotten better because of how PC everyone is, it's still a lot more difficult than it should be. If I can do it, I'm sure you can stop sucking your own clit for five minutes to actually bother being a friend to someone and not use them as an emotional check list of expectations. That's what it sounds like you're all really looking for, and that's the problem.
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Fuck you I love snakes
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I'm almost done with high school. I have a couple female friends, but larger groups of girls seem to speak in a language I don't know. I definitely agree with the anon who was talking about social graces, because my shit-talking ways have alienated normal girls a couple times.
Call me edgy, but different girls can bond over different superficial things. A well-done face of makeup, a fantasy novel, and a k-pop t shirt are cues in a similar way. Generalizing 50% of the population and then ~trying to understand~ is stupid.
The way I made friends in high school is not being afraid to bug quiet people sometimes. Eventually I met people who had a couple things in common with me, which I think is possible for anyone in this thread.
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You have to wade through piles of crap. Either they're bitches or you'll drift apart. I have a close bff though and we're thick as thieves for the last 10+ years but she's the only one.
Actually when you get ancient like me (26) you'll have less friends in general. I ran around with so many people at 19-23 and you just get tired.
Shit like friends where you have close and trustworthy friendships in your thirties, it's honestly more unrealistic than the big fancy apartment.
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hearing that it's harder to make and keep friends as you get older is so depressing to me.
i'm going to be graduating college soon. i pretty much stopped talking to my high school friends as soon as we graduated, and the most we do now is like each other's instagram posts. i'm worried - will my friends and i stop talking after graduating? do we even have anything in common outside of having fun lunches and gossiping together? they're all the fujo/nerdy types, just like me.
Same boat, anon. I'm graduating soon and my best friends and times were in college (freshman and sophomore year, not later when the courseload is higher). You will grow, and you might grow apart as your interests change. But if you're really friends, you'll find something to bond over. My friend and I from high school don't cosplay anymore (she works too many jobs right now, I'm working on my master's), but we still go out to lunch when we can and we've always been there for each other. I can't say that for all of my friends, but I don't mind keeping the ones that matter.
I also made a few friends recently joining local organizations with another friend of mine. Don't forget about social events and clubs (I swear to you, adult knitting clubs are way more fun than they sound), they can also help introduce you to more people.
I have literally one female friend. I met her last year. My old BFF from years ago was never really a friend. We rarely hung out, has literally never once helped me through a hard time in my life the few times i came to her for comfort, but always wanted me to help her when shit got bad. Finally just got sick of it.
All the other girls I know just rarely talk to me.
But unfortunately this one girl is super busy. She's literally always working because housing is so expensive out where we live, so I don't get to see her much but it's like no time passed in that moment.
When we do talk she always asks me if things are going well which the old bff never asked.
Even if I'm not her best friend at least i have someone to fill that void in for me.
But i honestly don't have confidence it will last. Either she'll move and forget about me, or meet someone better. I'm just trying to enjoy it until then.
She's the first one to buy me a christmas gift though.
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The majority of my friendships are, and have been, with other women. Honestly, it's a mixed bag just like with anyone else.
I've had plenty of friends who I have cut out of my life due various different reasons: some would just talk shit about me to their other friends that they would do the same to, some would drop me once they found a "cooler" friend group, some were just friends with me out of convenience, and some just dragged me down emotionally because they were in a bad mental state themselves and encouraged me to stoop to the game level as an effort to "relate". In spite of this, I have a large amount of friendships with other women that are incredibly valuable to me and whenever we do have some type of issue between us, we resolve it in a matter of moments and continue on.
Lately, I found that a lot of my male friendships are much more dramatic and cattier than any of my female friendships. Lately I find that a lot of my male friends are only friends with me because their end goal of it all is to either escalate our friendship into a relationship or to have sex. And of course not reciprocating to these attempts lead to a lot of anger and bitterness on their end, so I had to let go of a lot of my male friendships due to it. Actually, I'm more comfortable being friends with men in relationships because there isn't that fear that they're just friends with me in hopes of it escalating to something more. I'm not trying to humblebrag, but I'm just trying to illustrate that a lot of friendships don't hang on the contingency of sex or gender.
I just think it's a matter of going into a platonic relationship with someone with no end goal set in sight and just feeling out how the person clicks with you. It helps if the both of you are in similar mindsets and have similar temperaments–after all, birds of a feather flock together.
Wow, I went thru exactly this last year. Cut off my only female close friend because she was an insecure and a catty hypocrite. She'd put down girls for doing cutesy shit and then turn around and do the same. I got so sick of her constantly talking shit and I knew she was talking shit about me too.
It sucks not having a close female friend but, god, Im so happy without her.
I just want a fun, chill gamer gf that wants to cosplay. The only person I talk to on a regular basis is my boyfriend. I miss shopping and doing girly stuff.
I've always wanted a really close BFF girl friend. Like one you can talk to any time and hang out and do things with most days. I get so jealous when I see girls with friends like that. Mostly I want this because I've been fucking depressed for a lot of my life and I've never had a close friendship like that and I know it would help to have someone like that. It seems like most of the time, they find someone else that is more important to them or they get a boyfriend that takes up too much of their time.
The only thing I have right now are friends that live far away that I only text, a few guy friends that still live here that don't give too much of a shit, and people that are too busy.
The only girl friend that I had living here (and had known for years) I recently quit talking to because we had a "falling out". Also because she didn't seem to give a shit about me either.
>>62375>I recently quit talking to because we had a "falling out"
What, no, fight for it! This is IMPORTANT. This is in the core of your LIFE.
>Also because she didn't seem to give a shit about me either.
Is she your mommy or your friend? Friends are not there to give a shit
. Friends are there to lend out a hand
. And you sure need that extra hand in this world, believe me. And that's worth fighting for.
Call her. Talk to her.
See I'm always stuck between fighting for people (because it seems like that's all I've ever done) and cutting out people when I need to.
In this particular situation, I was talking to barely anybody because of how depressed I was, I wasn't eating and really wanted to die. I did tell her that I was depressed, but that I didn't want to talk about it at the time, and she knows I have chronic depression, knows I've had issues with food, possibly knows about past self harm. I really just could not talk to many people at that time. But she got really offended about me not talking to her anymore, and thought she was the one doing all the work, and in general kind of wanted me to feel bad about it. Then
told me she
was depressed because of something that happened to her with a friend in the summer. Trust me when I say, this girl does not understand what depression is like and most likely meant she was just sad about something that happened. It's not like she has nobody to talk to or do things with, she does have a boyfriend too. I honestly blew up at her over messaging (I NEVER do this to friends) with my life story and how depression has ruined my life. It all ended with "Okay, I'm here if you ever need me". I feel like I just can't anymore, anon. :( I'm the type of person to always, always, put people before me, and do things for people, care for them, and I always have. I don't know if I've just been fed up and have turned into a bitch or what.
thats a toughie b/c id always choose quality friends over quantity, but you rlly need to cultivate friendships to be that quality
I don't think its cool she played depression olympics but I feel like its worth reconciling if what she got upset over was you not talking to her as much, just let her know ur going to be more available from now on
i was best friends with this one girl since the tender age of 5. she would always say awful shit to me and make me cry but i ignored it out of genuine sisterly affection for her. i should have realized how shitty she was sooner, but i was a child and i didn’t want to lose my best friend who by that point i had known for half of my life. the abrupt end to our friendship happened one year out of high school when she randomly blocked me on all social media (not before talking a ton of shit about me to her other friends behind my back lol) because supposedly i was the toxic one. she never even bothered to be upfront with me about the problems she had with me, she just bottled it up for ages and never fucking brought it up so of course it came as a huge shock to me when she cut off contact. i begged her for closure through our other mutual friends, but she was such a massive coward that she ignored that, too.
joke’s on her because i’ve been best friends with her other close friend (who she introduced me to) for about 10 years now and we’ve never had a falling out. i think the closest thing to a “fight” we had was when he got miffed at me for accidentally spoiling an episode of a TV show. our friendship is less drama and way more fun, and i never realized how dysfunctional my friendship with her was until i found a real friend who truly cares.
like the previous anon >>62350
said, friendships with either sex are a mixed bag. most female friends i’ve had have either stabbed me in the back or just simply drifted away from me. there is a trickier balance with women in some ways but it can be really rewarding, and i think girls are like cats in that sense. they’ll let you get close one minute and claw you the next, but every cat is different and some are more trustworthy than others. i haven’t given up hope that i’ll find a female friend eventually and i can’t let one nightmarish cunt color my perception of an entire gender.
This one hundred times. Theres a lot of 'oh girls were terrible to me when I was in school', it sounds like you let your teen years cement your ideas of all girls being shit, and are determined to carry that cross for the rest of your life - using that to explain why despite you being the common denominator, its everyone else's fault that you cant maintain a friendship.
All my close female friendships (5+ years of strong close good times) I've made were with girls who I first met over the internet and then met up with irl, so I think anons who mentioned trying to make friends with women who you don't think would be good prospects due to looks is good advice.
>having female friends also helped me understand what is important to me in a romantic relationship and how to be happy without one when i would be going through breakups
this a million times. having like-minded, supportive, emotionally available friends (of either sex) protects you from going into SO many bad relationships. when you have people that genuinely care about you, you don't constantly search for care, attention and a means to fill your time and get involved with the first loser who gives them to you.
also, i think it just now clicked that why so many anons here are complaining of being a friendless shut-in and are also in terrible relationships. they literally have no one else probably.
sometimes it's easier to find a bf than regular friends.
and eh, i wish i had more friends, and the ones i have, i don't know if they're that great. but i still don't feel the need to be in random relationships. maybe it's just because i get too irritated after a while with most people.
, and I've had that issue my entire life. It's easier now, but it still sucks. It's to the point to where I don't mention my sexual orientation to potential female friends at all in fear of alienating them.>>64091
Sex is a strong motivator for men, and you get to not put in any effort. Male friends are easy modo, because their thirst for female attention (with the anticipation of sex or not) is strong enough for them to work at keeping your attention and interaction. Females friendships have a different type of foundation, and most of you aren't willing to meet them halfway. That's why I think there are so many "I have mostly male friends, I just cant be close with girls~" anon in these threads are coming from. And what >>64028
Anon you probably know but your whole post is a worrying you can't call those girls friends if they were just using you for sexual fantasies, and I hope you don't base your view of actual female friends on their shitty behavior. Take the time and heal, but just know that it was not normal. Also>but if you supply me with enough alcohol, combined with my gullible personality, I can be persuaded to do anything. I still feel used by it.
There is a lot to work through there and it concerns me. You can be explore a wild sex life without having to feel obligated to everyone who decides to 'convince' you to do things, but it doesn't make you any less of a person if you either do want to or don't want to do things. Reclaiming the confidence to say no is important. I hope you are ok.
I just got home from a visit home where I only got to hang out with my mom. The only friends who hung out with me were friends of my husband who mostly asked about him. None of my friends answered my messages about getting together except one, who flaked on me.
So when I came home my old habit of how i let my anxiety about how people view me get in the way almost made me fight my best friend and forget that she really does love me she just has a lot going on herself (She just broke up and got back together with her boyfriend so things probably aren't perfection right now).
She doesn't talk to me much though. She hasn't told me the details of what happened and even though I know she's still my friend and still enjoys hanging out with me I keep getting angry and jealous because she's hanging out with another female friend. Ultimately my opinion is "So what? She can have other friends" but a part of me is still jealous and upset and even angry at the idea that this other girl might know what's been going on with her while my friend barely talks to me.
But when we're hanging out in person she pours open with everything, even broke down crying on my birthday.
I don't know.
Maybe i just can't be friends with girls? I never feel this way about guys.