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File: 1549823586496.jpg (27.15 KB, 480x367, killallmen.jpg)

No. 7604

I was going around Twitter looking at some people's interpretation of the female gaze and was curious as to what farmers think about the concept. The popular method over on Twitter seems to be to compare one film still to another that has overt male gaze influenced framing.

Obviously, we all know shirtless dudes != female gaze bc those dudes are primarily for men to self insert as fantasies and not actually for women. There is also the possibility that the female gaze can never fully develop because the language of cinema was created largely by men. Women in cinema, as we do in all fields, had to adapt and assimilate to exist in the space which took away any potential to assert our gaze onto the theory.

However, with enough time and careful thought perhaps it is still possible to develop cinematic language that is female to a greater extent. As you can tell, I don't view a male or female gaze as inherently wrong or derogatory. It's only an issue for male gaze to be so prevalent because it leaves little space for women to have something cater to them artistically.

I'm primarily talking about film and possibly video games. Porn for a female audience has some more evident female gaze present but porn is a low hanging fruit and primarily interacts with ~~the gaze~~ in a sexual way which I don't think fully describes the effect.

Chip in with opinions, farmers! Apologies if this ends up being OT for this board. I made the thread here because it's not really bathroom talk.

No. 7605

Sounds like incels projecting yet again. I don't even know what the female gaze would look like.
>There is also the possibility that the female gaze can never fully develop because the language of cinema was created largely by men.
This pretty much

No. 7606

I've never heard of the female gaze until now. We have one? Lol.

No. 7607

File: 1549824532730.png (1.15 MB, 1126x574, Screen Shot 2019-02-10 at 13.4…)

>ree incels
kindly shut the fuck up

So there seems to be an effort to create it and define it because, yes, it seems to sort of barely exist at the moment. I'm seeing lots of depictions of soft looking women among flowers but is that really it?

I did see a comparison of two versions of Harley which I've included in this post. I'm curious what people think bc the Twitter feedback was very mixed. Right image is from Birds of Prey.

To me they still kept male serving things in the costume design so idk if it's fully there BUT the style is quite different for the costumes they gave her in Suicide Squad.

No. 7608

File: 1549824787991.png (1.36 MB, 1134x640, Screen Shot 2019-02-10 at 13.5…)

Another comparison people like to make. who made the costumes matters a bit but not entirely because any gender can create content to serve the tastes of the other, as long as the taste is established. This almost always ends up going one way, with female costumers and directors pandering to the male gaze rather than the opposite happening at all.

No. 7609

File: 1549825109415.jpg (122.58 KB, 491x750, 1536803256026.jpg)

What are some examples of female gaze? Just more of a focus on feminine beauty than sexual appeal (kind of like the intricate artwork CLAMP put out of Chii from Chobits, in spite of how 100% male gaze-oriented the actual work is)?
It's not that I don't believe in the concept, I just can't fully visualize what such a thing would look like.

No. 7610

They’re both hideous.

I don’t think female gaze can exist. We are all the product of an entire lifetime under a patriarchal society, watching movies, reading books, consuming television produced under the male gaze. It’s impossible to say what a female gaze would be. What media would women make for other women, in an all female society?

Saying the female gaze is feminity is dumb, I like girly shit but none of that is inherently tied to my womanhood.

No. 7611

Uhh why are you defending incels? Just wondering. Are you just sick of hearing about them? Actually curious here.

Is the female gaze like how women want women to be portrayed? Or how women want to see men portrayed? Although now that I'm thinking of it, that depends on your sexual orientation I guess? Just spitballing ideas.

Here's a definition from wiki:
The female gaze is a feminist film theoretical term representing the gaze of the female viewer. It is a response to feminist film theorist Laura Mulvey's term, "the male gaze", which represents not only the gaze of the male viewer but also the gaze of the male character and the male creator of the film.

So I guess it's all of the above. This is an interesting topic!

No. 7612

I'm sort of wary of manga/anime depictions, I think Japan has a weird view on women and even their (female) artists draw rapey love stories in a genre they describe via the demographic: shoujo/young girls. The artwork you posted specifically looks alright though. I wouldn't fully dismiss it.

I agree, for the most part. I think eventually it could be possible, like perhaps centuries in the future. I don't think it's truthful to claim it is never ever possible because there are female artists and new strides are still being made in art, even though some media have slowed down. It's not possible to undo aesthetic conditioning in a lifetime but over several lifetimes we can slowly shed the limitations and conventions.

Video games could be the space to try and invent it. You have to remember that the way male gaze is executed in film is heavily through cinematic language that men influenced. Video games are a young art form and the theory, take it from someone that studied it, is really really lackluster. We don't have the profound academic theory to back up games that cinema has. It's going to happen as the medium matures and I personally predict Kojima's new project will probably do some Citizen Kane shit for games. It's in inventing new solutions to problems and creating methods which academics then can analyze to break down to theory in how it all works.

Coming from that perspective, if we have women taking risks and trying unique things in a medium that has space to develop then we could potentially push for aesthetic language that connects to us.

Yeah Harley's design is quite ugly and the character has always been extremely unappealing to me. Mindbroken idiot woman who is obsessed with her boyfriend and is physically abused as the cherry on top. I don't understand why women like her.

No. 7613

This is what I imagine female gaze is.
From https://www.vulture.com/2018/08/how-do-we-define-the-female-gaze-in-2018.html
>“The ‘male’ gaze seeks to devour and control, and the ‘female’ gaze is more a frame of mind, where approach to subject and material is more emotional and respectful … I try to approach shooting with a particular sensitivity, an openness to experimentation and a penchant for failure. I want the image to come alive and I think perfection is boring.”

No. 7614

I thought you were calling me an incel. Sorry about that sis.

It's a term that includes sexual tastes but it's also how the female viewer would want to see a female character represented. It's in every facet from costumes to character writing to how the camera frames people. For instance in the text Megan Fox's character in Trasformers was actually written as a frustrated, intelligent woman being overlooked by men due to her appearance. The camera as directed by Michael Bay framed her as purely a sex object by obsessing over her sexual appeal. There are some video essays that compare the text to the framing if you're interested. Anyway, bit of a tangent there.

Think about how commercials try to sell their target demo a product by showing the viewer's ideal self and implying the product can give you that. That's why you can usually tell who a brand is selling to by the models they use. Holiday resort commercials and car commercials are AMAZING examples of this effect.

In theory, female gaze would give us the female female fantasy. A female perspective. You wouldn't get stoic white dudes who have pussy thrown at them shown as the exclusive holders of protagonist privileges.

I like that because while it's not necessarily the female gaze, it sounds like it is her gaze which is exactly the kind of contribution needed to construct a dense library of aesthetic sensibilities we can call the female gaze.

No. 7615

File: 1549826238511.png (192.34 KB, 613x844, 9654.png)

at first i was like, wtf, because i thought some scrot made this thread, haha. i have never thought about this before.

i feel like media that is made for a "female gaze" would be harder to define. it's so rare to see something that really sticks out to me and makes me feel like it's… speaking to my sexuality, i guess? the only example i can think of is sachiko kaneoya's artwork, and even then a lot of it is still niche, but the foreword in her new artbook really spoke to me, pic related.

i think art made for the 'female gaze' has been much more niche, ambiguous, and hard to come by since women typically have not had very much room to explore sexuality in general. even when i see things that i guess are supposed to turn girls on, it just makes me feel alienated. there is also- in my opinion, what i believe is- the myth of "men are visual creatures; women are not". if i could guess i think that came about from men pressuring women into looking the way they want them to, while men typically don't do much appearance wise. i'm going all over the place here, but i guess that's all i can contribute for now.

No. 7616

File: 1549826899850.jpg (Spoiler Image,51.09 KB, 695x562, Dw1kRplU8AAxfe4.jpg large.jpg)

This involves porn somewhat, but from what I've been able to tell in nsfw/suggestive artwork drawn by the sexes, women tend to focus more on detailed, subtle aesthetic appeal whereas men focus more on almost cartoonish proportions to highlight sexual characteristics. Hence you get gross stuff like shad, whereas the female gaze creates stuff like Sac. It doesn't even have to be het work either, I've seen artwork from lesbian artists that's far more…appreciative of the female form rather than transformative, and have also seen gay male art that dramatizes sexual characteristics (huge "hyperrealistic" dicks, cartoonish muscles, etc.). There are obviously exceptions but that's the majority of what I've witnessed from both.
So general trend is that men like dramatized, very in-your-face depictions of the human figure while women can appreciate the whole human body and not just sexual areas. Even yaoishit that's transformative and goofy in the way heteromale art is dramatizes non-sexual but pretty areas of the male body, like hands.

Rambley but I guess what I'm getting at is that the female gaze is less gross and obnoxious. This probably translates into sfw areas as well.

Agree with all this, too.

No. 7617

Very interesting blurb from the artist there. What women look at in men is going to be an entirely different set of body parts than what men would assume we look at. My male partners have always been weirded out by the parts of them I compliment. It's definitely easier to spot the female gaze in sexual framing, just as it is easiest to spot the male gaze in sexual contexts. I'm not really willing to look at straight up porn just because I truly loathe the entire concept but if people have an interest in exploring and decoding some stuff that is fine by me, just spoiler it as we would anywhere else on the site.

>men are visual creatures, women are not

That is truly insane to me! Women are extremely detail oriented compared to men and we have a strong sense of aesthetics. Where would that sentiment even come from…

The details definitely matter a huge amount. The presentation has an emotional presence and appreciation for the nature of the subject matter. Men going for excess in all aspects also checks out. Even straight anime porn for men is all grotesque in proportions.

No. 7618

File: 1549827081625.jpg (88.01 KB, 1200x1116, s-l1600.jpg)

Love the topic.

The last time I felt something like "the female gaze" was when shopping for artbooks and wanting to get this one, it might be because it portrays male characters in very intimate but not sexual situations. I was kinda hesitating because it's "too spicy", but soon after it hit me that it doesn't even come close to the portrayal of women in pop culture.

It's hard to flip the stereotypes perfectly, but maybe it would be about seeing men in a vulnerable state? Because it would be a state men don't want to be seen in, a state which a woman might enjoy more because of an intimate connection and technically have more control? It's a very stupid stereotypical version and it doesn't have a degrading aspect to it.

No. 7619

File: 1549827503350.jpg (274.7 KB, 1700x1163, Akino-Kondoh2.jpg)

Alright you goddamn weebs, I have some weebshit up my sleeve as well.

Peep Akino Kondoh's art. I have a collection book of her works and it's probably the first time I realized I crave a female perspective as a grown woman. She has worked with the "flowers all over nude females" visual shorthand quite a bit and they're quite nice too but her more abstract works are so captivating to me and it hits me directly in my female identity.

No. 7620

File: 1549827631343.jpeg (321.53 KB, 1024x1271, d1c8de4da01ba2e057b04d4486f8ef…)

>I'm sort of wary of manga/anime depictions, I think Japan has a weird view on women and even their (female) artists draw rapey love stories in a genre they describe via the demographic: shoujo/young girls. The artwork you posted specifically looks alright though. I wouldn't fully dismiss it.
Yeah, I just thought of CLAMP because they're an all-female artist circle, and I think their art reflects that, though their actual work has some of the same pitfalls you mentioned.

I personally think I grew up liking anime/manga (manga-styled art especially), partly because there isn't a huge scarcity of women and girls being both pretty and strong, without overt sexuality necessarily being enforced (though, since the lion's share is still made and consumed by men or women who lived/worked according to men all their life, this isn't true in all or even the majority of cases). Looking at things like pic related, I was just never given the feeling that raw sex mattered more than design itself or the character, unlike how I felt with a large chunk of western media/design/cinema. That's not the case for all of it by any means, but when I do find something that hits that sweet spot, it tends to be some sort of anime drawing, for some reason.

No. 7621

I pretty much agree with the cartoonish stuff. I know a lot of women if they ever do draw things cartoonish, the men are more likely in a vulnerable state like >>7618 said, also more often then not, these men are portrayed very feminine-like.

No. 7622

File: 1549827893481.jpg (185.87 KB, 1400x1400, akino.jpg)

Another Akino. Her work inspired me to work on my current art project that seeks to explore my connection to being a woman. I hope to conceal the subtext in visual allegory bc I don't really want an in-your-face expression but these sorts of works speak to me so much.

No. 7623

File: 1549828005870.jpg (99.47 KB, 500x737, a0bfb67240f27f8b4cc37503646c21…)

yeah i agree! it's definitely not just something applied to nsfw art, but i use it as an example.

i used to think i wasn't visual because i'm female, and i just knew that the things that turned men on, weren't what turned me on in any given situation, even if it was the same situation. but it's not simply visuals/nonvisuals, not at all.

i guess the best way i could put it is this image by kaneoya, and any dumb dakimakura of an anime girl made for men. i have the impression that men like seeing girls laying on bed half-dressed, because the implication is that they're going to remove the rest of the clothes and have sex. but i love this image by kaneoya for incredibly different reasons. it's not just sexual. it's not an "i want to see more" kind of appeal. it's so intriguing, i love it simply as it is, and i don't need to see more. it's that transitional value in a way, she describes it exactly in the foreword i posted earlier. i've found that maybe the character of that "male absolute territory" is what turns me on, and men like the "female absolute territory" because of implications that he'll get to have his way with her later.

i don't know if i'm making sense lol, can anyone else articulate this concept better?

No. 7624

>It's hard to flip the stereotypes perfectly, but maybe it would be about seeing men in a vulnerable state? Because it would be a state men don't want to be seen in, a state which a woman might enjoy more because of an intimate connection and technically have more control?
This reminds me of the whole "whump" subgenre of fanfiction, spearheaded primarily by female authors.

No. 7625

On the topic of weebshit showing up in this thread, maybe I'm just an unculutred pig but I noticed that the most porn of men (drawn by women for women) was by those with nerdy hobbies like vidya, comics and anime so it doesn't surprise me. Japanese women have a lot of much riskier and even messed up stuff available to a wider audience, but it mostly focuses on male x male stuff rather than female x male.

That's why a lot of neckbeards mistakenly label any sort of pandering to women as fujoshit and consider fetishizing gay men to be our variant of "the female gaze", even though a much smaller group of women is into that.

No. 7626

Definitely. Reading manga as a young girl was such a treat because I couldn't find what I wanted in live action shows on TV. I was dreading the anime images at first but you guys' examples reminded me of how much this stuff speaks to us than whatever else is widely available. Thanks for getting me to entertain these works I've "grown out of" in terms of subject matter but not in the aesthetics.

I backed up my tumblr blog where I made no original content but simply stockpiled a fuckton of images that capture my gaze. It's all safely stored on the cloud now, I backed it up right before Tumblr decided to purge all NSFW shit which ended up killing all the blogs I took the images from. Not that I care about Tumblr but I'd be sad to lose my gazeboard.

No. 7627

File: 1549828207347.jpg (284.48 KB, 1000x1000, pjimage.jpg)

Warning for k-pop.
SNSD is an interesting case. In Japan, they were occasionally marketed towards young girls. Above is the Korean version of Oh!, bottom is the Japanese version. Korean version has hideous outfits and hair and is focused on sex appeal. Japanese has trendier, less revealing outfits and hair and makeup that girls would appreciate. Aesthetics and visual appeal are number one for females.

No. 7628

>Women are extremely detail oriented compared to men and we have a strong sense of aesthetics.

Yes. I think many men are half-blind. Like they can't tell a woman in a picture is sexy unless she has spherical implants and cartoonish makeup and an unnatural pose. And when it comes to cartoon and manga art it gets worse, it's like a lot of male artists never look at real women and don't find them attractive.
Lesbian and bi women however, are able to find women in their natural state sexy and often draw women in a very different way, with realistic proportions.

No. 7629

File: 1549828507503.jpg (121 KB, 1200x1095, 1543370881179.jpg)

So, while a hypothetical female gaze would dwell on "perfect moments", the male gaze dwells on a hint of being offered or promised something?
It's like two different interpretations of the term "pregnant pause". I like this theory a lot.

No. 7630

Wow I just gushed about this image IRL to my roommate. It's a perfect example. The little bits of delicate details we look at are there, the face has an emotional vulnerability and the setting looks like he is getting off work. All so appealing and I think it does pander to us really well. It does back up what the text said in the earlier thing you posted.

What we seem to all agree on so far is
>detail good
>male "AT" differs from female and is in delicate details like the lines of the neck, wrists, hands, etc
>has to be emotionally vulnerable
>color harmony and naturalistic design trumps excess of sex organs

Neck beards really want to be able to "both sides" every conversation so they can inject false nuance to their opinions. That's the source of the dismissal of a potential female gaze by going "but there are shirtless guys so shut up".

No. 7631

These works are absolutely beautiful anon, I appreciate you sharing them!

>a hypothetical female gaze would dwell on "perfect moments", the male gaze dwells on a hint of being offered or promised something?

Kinda fucked up on the dude's part but an interesting theory nonetheless

No. 7632

File: 1549829351654.gif (8.77 MB, 850x510, goldblum.gif)

>"but there are shirtless guys so shut up".

Muscular shirtless action hero men do nothing for me, this type of shirtless scene though…now we are talking!
He is both vulnerable and weirdly seductive at the same time. And no crazy abs.

No. 7633

File: 1549829528807.jpg (33.34 KB, 564x596, fea82c51c539213d114eb42d28bebf…)

I just considered something. In hentai (and most porn), we've been conditioned to focus on the woman and her appearance above all, rather than the man, to the point where it's often an automatic habit. We look first at the woman's body and actions. She is "being" while the man is "doing", and her act of "being" overshadows everything else. Since that's what (straight) men want to focus on, it's good, but for (straight, bi and lesbian) women, it gets played out, hard to enjoy or just ineffective. But we're used to it.
Is male x male content actually a way for women to separate from all that for once?

No. 7634

File: 1549829621820.png (355.75 KB, 450x650, 0c8cc97b6bb35b6f54cfb088689041…)

ifkr! i never understood any "female pandering" when it was just like, some buff guy with his shirt off. it seems too voyeuristic for me, plus i'm not into bulging muscles. i never saw the appeal of porn because i never get turned on just seeing a person's genitals. what has always been more of an erotic experience to me was something that really showed the character of a man, in a vulnerable way. guys have always been weirded out when i compliment their hands, neck, shoulders, wrists, legs, etc. but those situations are always so much more appealing to me than the sexual scenarios that are made for men. when i'm attracted to a man, i don't fantasize about sex very much. i just find it so attractive when he adjusts his shirt collar, fixes his tie, folds his hands. i appreciate how nice his profile is when he turns his head, i love the movement of him rolling up his shirt sleeves. it's really, really the little things.

my sexuality is essentially: i need a guy that wears well-fitting button ups every day and knows how to carry himself, lmfao, not a big dick.

No. 7635

Is this Femdom 2.0? One thread not enough to post the same drawings by the same artists with your same commentary?

No. 7636

File: 1549830055748.jpg (173.51 KB, 768x1024, 12972348_768x1024.jpg)

I haven't watched it yet but a friend used to talk a lot about the Fujiko Mine anime and it's on the top of my list. The reason why I'm bringing it up here because a female director and a female writer are portraying a sexualized character here.

>“Women never show themselves in their natural form. That is to say, they are not so vain as men, who conceive themselves to be always amiable enough just as nature produced them.”–Goethe

>In the sixth episode of The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Fujiko reads this passage to a class of adoring high school girls while in disguise as a teacher.
>She is selfish and greedy, uses sex for her personal gain, and prefers vice to virtue.  Of course, so does our hero Lupin, but his motives are never questioned. As a man, he is allowed to simply be who he is, whereas Fujiko, as a woman, is compared to notions of how a woman should be.

Why I find it interesting is that while it features nudity and overly shapey curves, the visual style also has a lot of the things other anons mentioned, more of an aesthetic approach, flowers, attention to detail like jewellery, very interesting shots.

No. 7637

i think you're onto something, anon. i've never been into fujo stuff but i recently read a yaoi manga out of curiosity, and though i'm not the type of girl to really get off on things between gay males, i was really impressed with how the art and writing portrayed their relationship, it was really erotic, and probably like a lot of girls who don't typically look at gay erotica, it confused me because i don't really fetishize gay men. it was definitely because there was no girl involved, therefore the way sexual situations were communicated were much more different. i get so turned off when a girl's curves become really comically pronounced or the way they portray her a lot in sexual situations.

No. 7638

File: 1549830124265.jpg (164.95 KB, 736x1080, ccc55d6f9761b651fdd79cbace816f…)


You're right. Western media for children (almost?) always focused on making content for boys. Girls were discriminated against.

>In a fascinating discussion with director Kevin Smith, Dini relates that higher-ups at the cable network urged him to focus his storylines on his male characters and make his female characters “one step behind the boys, not as smart as the boys, not as interesting as the boys.” When Dini proceeded to create fully realized girl characters anyway, the Cartoon Network axed the show.

DINI: They’re all for boys. “We do not want the girls,” I mean, I’ve heard executives say this, you know, not [where I am] but at other places, saying like, “We do not want girls watching this show.”

Not the same anon, but I still like CLAMP and Chobits even if the story is very skewed in a male dominant way. I like the mellowness of the story and the clothes…

No. 7639

>Is male x male content actually a way for women to separate from all that for once?
Shit. This is a valid tinfoil…
While I don't think we can accurately pinpoint what makes fujos the way they are, you are probably onto some aspect of the truth.

I loathe porn because it makes everything look like meat. I think that "meat" aspect is probably caused by male gaze. If you look at porn art the limbs are all kinda floating and bloated, no skeleton is actually assembled underneath. It's like an idealized version of what live action porn offers.

No. 7640

>what makes fujos the way they are
usually voyeurism, ftm tendencies and insecurity about other women

No. 7641

i only posted kaneoya works that don't have a very obvious femdom element to it. even describing what i liked about them, there's no explicit femdom element to what i said.

also the thread is generally for any art, it doesn't have to be nsfw. why be surprised that a lot of feminists on lolcow are into femdom anyway, lol

No. 7642

File: 1549830930301.jpg (67.67 KB, 640x480, math.jpg)

nah, I just like having two men to look at instead of just one. It's like a bonus. 1+1=2

(Not that what you listed arentreasons for some other people though)

I wouldn't call myself a fujoshi though. I'm too old to be that weeby.

No. 7643

File: 1549831023357.png (346.08 KB, 485x686, 61949791_p0.png)

I've heard some say it outright that it's a way to escape objectification of women and shitty gender roles/ hierarchy.
For some that internalized stuff about men and women may be so hard to get out of their head that they prefer to focus on malexmale only when drawing/writing.
(I'm not saying you can't like it just because it's hot or whatever too, but this is the case for some women)

But personally, I prefer female POV in romantic and sexual scenarios. It's too rare and I love finding it.
Remember when it's your fantasy and creation, then it's your power to create exactly what you want when you imagine or draw or write something. Toss gender roles out the window if you hate them and imagine the perfect scenario. Sexualize the shit out of the man/men in the way you want. Portray the woman as ugly or invisible or as hot as you want.

No. 7644

So post art that has the subby female gaze, you goof. How is your interest in male dominance different than, say, the gay male interest in male dominance? I'm curious about that, too.

No. 7645

If you're going to ree about fujos at every given opportunity, you should at least change up your wording a bit as to not give away the fact that it's the same anon (you) doing it every single time. It makes you look like a sperg.

No. 7646

Out of curiosity you feel like something presented in a written medium is more exciting or erotic than in a visual medium?

No. 7647

for me, not at all. i prefer images, i guess it's an instant gratification sort of thing. i have a good imagination but finding erotic art i actually like is rare so it makes me more excited to find something that is nice to look at, than to read. and tbh most written erotica just makes me cringe, personally.

No. 7648

File: 1549831247834.jpeg (84.31 KB, 779x447, DEB5717B-F9BE-4919-93C3-7AADC1…)

One example I can think of off the top of my head is Sofia Coppola’s films, specifically The Beguiled. She said it was a conscious choice to have Colin Farrell in the film as the “hunk” to turn female objectification on its head.


No. 7649

Erotic writing/fanfiction makes me cringe. I prefer visual media.

No. 7650

Half and half. Visuals turn me on, but I find words to be more erotic. But it can be hard to find decent erotica that isn't written like a ridiculous bodice ripper.

No. 7651

Btw the one non-visual media that turns me on is audio. I like guys breathing in my ear.

No. 7652

Interesting, I prefer art but the writing makes me more emotionally invested in a character. When an artist or writer portrays textures well it's also something that feels more real (not necessarily ero stuff).

This too, it's sadly either bodice ripper stuff or fanfiction where one character acts like the writer more than himself.

No. 7653

File: 1549831772159.jpg (Spoiler Image,64.63 KB, 540x405, tumblr_ozfqa9VZpx1vy6wszo1_540…)

NTA, but this is one of the only female sub pictures I've really been able to get into.
Not actually NSFW, but spoilered anyway.

No. 7654

What an interesting thread. I never thought about what made me attracted to a man but it really is the little things like Kaneoya portays in her artwork. Veins, arms, the neck, the skin between the clothes, the expression, etc.

What makes you think Kaneoya's work only appeal to femdom women? It doesn't. Also her art's been posted here for years regardless of the topic so I want to know how new are you?

No. 7655

No offense, but that smile is too funny.

No. 7656

Reminds me of the Rei parodies.

No. 7657

I'm going to see the film this week and get back to you on this. I'll take it to the film general if my feedback ends up not being female gaze related, though.

Visuals are more appealing but they have to be backed up by thoughtful text.

Can you describe what it's doing for you? What do you like about it?
Not to be mean, I think the image is goofy as fuck but I want to hear what appeals to you about it.

No. 7658

The guy is weird looking. Femsub pictures for the female gaze are too rare. Japan is the only one that delivers because it's only ever done right in otome and such.

No. 7659

>with female costumers and directors pandering to the male gaze rather than the opposite happening
can you elaborate given you chosen that image which i heard kinda goes against what you just said.

No. 7660

I like visuals because I enjoy drawing porn and suggestive art for myself (even dearest Sac's art doesn't hit the sweetest spot for me). Just a visual person in general.
Teen me liked writing and reading smutty shit too, though. The ideal medium is comics.

No. 7661

i know right, it's so disappointing. i like both femdom and femsub stuff, and get really disappointed whenever i find stuff made for men/focused on the girl in the situation. also half the time it's insane brutal shit or (gags) ddlg. too often male doms are cringey or that weird "yandere bf" shit i keep seeing.

No. 7662

>Can you describe what it's doing for you? What do you like about it?
I just like the dead, sickly look in his eyes and the fact that he's not an ugly old man, or some non-descript male with the woman as the main focus. I like that the way the woman's leg is chained shows there's something sexual and deviant going on, without having to beat it into the viewer's head.
>Not to be mean, I think the image is goofy as fuck but I want to hear what appeals to you about it.
Kek, I'm not offended at all. Different strokes. I've seen worse, so I'm not bothered about the art style at all.

No. 7663

I think the images posted so far show a man thinking, having feelings, being intelligent, being engaged in a task which is not his dick. Being attractive while not actually thinking about or pursuing sex.

I think outside of portrayal of men, female gaze is where women are intelligent, productive, strong characters that aren't existing as decorations, servants, or victims of crime as ways to incite revenge in a male character.

Most mainstream movies are made to a male perspective. I think movies like Ghibli, Some Disney and Pixar and some older screwball comedies like the Marilyn movies are all with the female gaze/with female gaze and experiences in mind. Especially newer Disney ones, which have subtle plot devices making it clear that, specifically the male love interest was a scoundrel and not a hero (Frozen, Maleficient). Brave has no love interest either, it's about family bonds the same as Frozen.

I'm hoping for more movies (not aimed at children) that have our perspective in mind in future. Female characters does not = female perspective, some all-female movies are entirely scripted by men, and then offered to us as a product "for us" despite our perspective being entirely absent.

Idea for thread: Please recommend movies that you think reflected your outlook and experiences.

No. 7664

So I actually said that some people like to make this comparison. I don't have a strong opinion on the actual costumes personally. Reading my old post I realize it was misleading on my part. I was trying to say that what women wearing the costumes report back or referring to the gender of the person who designed them are both not very sound arguments bc women are capable of pandering to male gaze and women are also capable of appreciating male gaze. We aren't perfect embodiments of only masculinity or femininity so there are grey areas.

Besides I think the amazon actors had good reason to defend the people that hired them regardless and being allowed to be genuinely buff on camera rather than skinny cardio bod is still empowering and interesting at the end of the day.

Does that make sense?

No. 7665

No it doesn't and posting like that is just misleading.

No. 7666

>How is your interest in male dominance different than, say, the gay male interest in male dominance?
You sound so ignorant and arrogant. Hope you're not serious with this.

No. 7667

>Please recommend movies that you think reflected your outlook and experiences.
Excellent idea. I'll have to think more on the topic and compile a nice list but in recent memory I'd say "The Favourite" did some things very right. Male director but there is a female writer credit and the portrayals were ones that I connected to. I liked that it showed a variety of women and their struggles for power in their own ways. Men were secondary in the film and that combined with the grit and multi-faceted portrayal of the women is worthy of recognition as a potential for female gaze elements.

No. 7668

File: 1549833465739.jpeg (201.63 KB, 2048x1356, 5C746DE1-1045-49FA-AE13-38DDD3…)

I’m fascinated by the female gaze as a writer and a big lover of art.

First and foremost, the idea that men are more often visual thinkers or whatever is utter bullshit in my opinion. I mean what the hell does that even mean???

I agree with the anons who mention a need for a female perspective in art. Lately, I’ve been tired/bored with the typical male messiah/end of the world/doomsday prophecy art and literature that seems to preoccupy the male psyche.

I also agree that there probably isn’t the equivalent female gaze as there is a male one. If we think of the male gaze and what it means not only in life but in art, the whole issue seems to stem around this idea of fantasy and idealism. When men stare/gaze/watch a woman, they fantasize about her, the things they would do to her, etc. This often leads to a sort of resentment or fear of real women when men are confronted with the reality that they are not perfect, passive, empty vessels of dreams and desire.

However, I think a contrast to the idea of ‘looked at ness’ in the male gaze is playing with the idea of confronting the gaze and looking back. Women are expected to be aware of state of being watched but are never expected to acknowledge it or else it breaks the fantasy. To me that’s a key perhaps to breaking the potential power of the male gaze. In film, when women are looked at they never acknowledge it even though you can tell they are aware of being gazed. The few times a women does acknowledge it she is seen negatively or portrayed as dangerous, like a witch or the more modern femme fatale. The camera in itself can be seen as a phallic object since it teaches us to narrow our perspective and see things not as they are but how the cameraman wants us to see them.

So I would imagine a good experiment would be to take a female director and a male director and give them a scene to film, and compare how a man would film a woman versus how a woman would film a woman (or a man). What do they focus on? Does the camera (the eye) portray the reality of the subject or does it describe the subject from the perspective of the one in control of the narrative?

I could go on but it’s a lot to think about.

I attached an image of Serge Lutens working with a model back in the day, as he’s an intriguing artist whose work revolves around the feminine.

No. 7669

I mean, reverse-harem is hardly a unique concept even in Western media, and I think having a bunch of women turn on each other and violently vie for a man's attention kind of defeats the purpose of introducing the female gaze in the first place. Not saying that you provided a bad example or anything, just that Sofia Coppola is a shit filmmaker (even though Marie Antoinette is a fun movie to watch when you're feeling self-indulgent).

No. 7670

Taste is objective of course, but that’s not really the plot of the movie. Have you seen it?

No. 7671

>Please recommend movies that you think reflected your outlook and experiences.
i think doing this with media in general sounds awesome. i'm looking for more movies to watch that resonate with me.
off the top of my head, i'd have to say the animated film Perfect Blue is really compelling, not just from the perspective of an idol, but as a woman in general. she struggles with her true identity and the identity others thrust upon her, specifically one men who obsess over her have created from what they desire her to be like.

i think the bell jar is an amazing book, and i'd definitely recommend any woman to read it, especially teen girls. it felt so cathartic to read what is basically a fictionized version of sylvia plath's experiences. i wanted to cry so many times reading it, it felt so genuine. the uneasiness around men, questioning your identity as a woman and what it means, wondering what sort of lifestyle you want vs what others think you should want… it was very powerful.

No. 7672

I'm not a sub but there is a type of male dominant I'd like to see in fiction: The tease and denial guy. Like a super handsome guy who flashes his hot body but the mc isn't allowed to touch him. In the end she gets the reward of course.

No. 7673

it sucks how unvaried media with power dynamics in the relationships are. it's always the same shit and it's disappointing.

No. 7674

That's not sub-like, that's a fucking nightmare.

No. 7675

>>7674 sarcasm?
…how is that a nightmare, especially when compared to the abuse in 50 shades

No. 7676

Eh, I'm a dom but that seems completely harmless?

No. 7677

Fuck I forgot to delete my silly attached image after I refreshed the page.

No. 7678

What's nightmarish about it? A guy flirting by making himself the object of desire, getting you all worked up and then finally you have sex. More like heaven.

No. 7679

I think picking on each other for individual taste goes into derailment territory. Let's try to keep it constructive here and try to understand different perspectives.

We are trying to come up with elements that make up the female gaze here, that is the thread topic.

No. 7680

File: 1549836161088.jpg (135.44 KB, 650x650, aXm7035xjU.jpg)

I'd like to talk a bit about 50 Shades with people who have read/watched them. I've only digested critique videos on it (Folding Ideas has a very comprehensive breakdown of each film and refers to the original fanfic as well) and want to see if some of the elements do or do not relate to the female gaze.

From what I understand the framing of the sex shifts from female pandering to male pandering in the last film? Do feel free to tell me to fuck off since I haven't bothered to watch them but BDSM is not an interest of mine so I doubt I'll ever see it for myself unless there are very cool things to look for pertaining to gaze.

I also want to hear some feedback on female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists". Again not a fan of the genre at all but I've been told they are really important and satisfy some female perspective cravings. Are there good examples of the concept that you can name? Seems like showing women being proactive is what the audience connects to primarily.

No. 7681

tbf i have only read/watched critiques of the books and films too. what bothers me about 50 shades is that it's written by a woman that doesn't understand what bdsm is. the protagonist says over and over again to him how she doesn't like what he does to her, she wants to do normal sex stuff, she clearly doesn't like that he basically stalks her, etc. there's no real, clear element of "i secretly like it teehee~". what i really hate is that he basically manipulates her too by just buying her stuff. it makes women appear shallow and complacent with being abused. the series leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

No. 7682

tbh i wish female gaze was more present and real. i'd love for men to feel constantly uncomfortable and objectified by women. it's pretty funny to go into a male-dominated fandom space and start posting yaoi art of the characters for instance, they start freaking out over how female artists objectify men.

No. 7683

Recent posts made me think- is the female gaze too intimate for a lot of people? Because so often romance and feelings are portrayed as "yucky", and such works are more harshly shamed than trashy power fantasy fiction.

>female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists"
I dislike that a lot of them still have unhealthy relationships.

No. 7684

Or post a romantic straight pic, a normal pinup of a male character or just talk about how hot he is, the guys will likely respond with "gaaay" - since they don't acknowledge the female gaze.

No. 7685

File: 1549836972725.png (Spoiler Image,1009.8 KB, 787x599, uwu.png)

might be looking into it too much, but i wonder if the color+pattern scheme of the boxers kaneoya's typical male subject has anything to do with the creepy panty shots of anime girls. they're stereotypically horizontal white and light blue stripes. i like how she genderbent it and just changed the stripe direction to objectify a man in his underwear. am i overthinking it?

forgot to spoiler pic, slightly nsfw

No. 7686

File: 1549836973650.jpg (58.02 KB, 745x419, film1-1_7-2-15.jpg)

Love this topic OP!
What's anon take on Magic Mike? Despite serving a very narrow form of attractiveness, why are these movies popular with women even though the narrative is of hyper masculine male regardless?
Ethics of sex work asides, kind of ashamed to admit that I enjoyed the performance scenes because I got to feel in control. I enjoyed projecting myself into the females who use men for personal pleasure, having a certain power over them. We just don't get to objectify men often… The rest of the movie is boring and irrelevant. My hypothesis is that a lot of women enjoy this dynamic thus the popularity and not just simply "shirtless dudes" like the male gaze frequently misunderstands.

No. 7687

delete the original post anon, you're still in the time window to delete it

No. 7688

kaneoya is a fucking hero. gorgeous art, sharp social commentary.

No. 7689

this. it's so lame how many men write that shit off as "faggy", lol shows how secure they are in themselves. in that same vein, i don't think being submissive should be considered feminine, the two aren't mutually exclusive at all.

No. 7690

i did, refresh the page

No. 7691

File: 1549837236449.jpg (427.2 KB, 2000x1076, romance.jpg)

Its been brought up but I think if we really want to look at Female Gaze with history behind it we'd have to look at romance novels. They've been made by women for women for decades now.

Interestingly the shirtless buff dude covers are being phased out. Originally the cover designs were chosen by the publishers and they've since realized a lot of women DON'T like those covers, they feel embarrassed buying them or renting them from libraries. So newer romance covers are often less explicit.

No. 7692

I think female gaze and works pandering to women in a "trashy" way are put down harder than the male counterparts bc of plain misogyny. Lindsay Ellis is hated here and she's a bit crazy imo too but her video does a good job of pointing this out.

No. 7693

File: 1549837474152.jpg (209.88 KB, 700x700, 13-harley-quinn.w700.h700.jpg)

This is such an interesting topic, there are so many things I'd like to address. Guess I'll start on comments that didn't get much reply

As far as Harley goes I think its important to note that a lot of people are unaware of her relationship to the Joker and really only absorb what has filtered through pop culture. Unfortunately there are also a lot of people who haven't had healthy relationships and can't relate to stories about that while Joker and Harley seem more accessible.

Regardless Harley is all Id. She's an adult woman who is childishly playful and whose impulsive actions are motivated by self interest and personal desire. In their day to day lives most women won't be that selfish or lol XD random, many women live lives punctuated by perfunctory sacrifice that brings them no joy and pressures to behave in a lady-like manner. I don't think the character has been handled well but I can understand why she is appealing to many women. Her Suicide Girls outfit is actually far less sexualized than her outfits worn in the videogames, the studio heads asked the costume designers for something that looked like an outfit a woman could make out things in her closet and that would be comfortable for cosplay. It isn't 'cute' but the reasoning behind it is interesting.

Resubmitted this bc forgot picture)

ahh didn't realize anon.

No. 7694

Explains why they were so macho-y and homoerotic.

That video actually came to mind when I wrote that, it's true (although I agree on Lindsey with anons lol)

No. 7695

>I've been told they are really important and satisfy some female perspective cravings. Are there good examples of the concept that you can name? Seems like showing women being proactive is what the audience connects to primarily.
The craving they satisfy for me is indeed their proactiveness. I just want to see (well, read about) women doing things unrelated to men. This is not to say that there cannot be a love interest, but I just want a more open view of things. I read The Hobbit again recently and it just made me sad to read about a world where all women are relegated to the house and the husband and only men can go out and give personal meaning to their lives.

No. 7696

>they're stereotypically horizontal white and light blue stripes. i like how she genderbent it and just changed the stripe direction to objectify a man in his underwear.
Holy shit, I think you're right. I never realized it, but it IS such a big focus and reoccurs in a lot of her works. She even makes this a prominent detail object in her art exhibitions.

No. 7697

File: 1549837896946.jpg (Spoiler Image,40.67 KB, 418x600, takato the egg.jpg)

The subversive element is probably the strongest draw to it. Also straight women do like conventionally attractive men. I don't know if this is necessarily female gaze but it's female pandering for sure.

NTA but I am so happy that she brought the artist up. I'm going to look into getting an art book by Kaneoya now!

On the topic of more gritty, fetishy art.. I love Takato Yamamoto's works. Male artist but I think the visuals are appealing and the women I show the pieces to react better than the men I've shown them to. What I like about it is the strength of sensual body parts as shapes and the rearrangement of them with artistic design in mind. I think even the images that feature women in bondage are very feminine in the gaze. There is a lot of attention to detail and a general naturalism to the forms as opposed to the bloated sexual excess of male gaze.

Reposted bc forgot to spoiler lol

No. 7698

Yes, I love Yamamoto's art and his style definitely speaks to the female gaze. The men he draws are more feminine and elegant looking too.

No. 7699

File: 1549838517378.jpg (46.53 KB, 300x481, 9781420117271_custom-18b2becfe…)

There are still the traditional bodice ripper covers FWIW they are just not as all encompassing now. You see more covers that are just a man's face.

You also see a lot of covers where the emphasis is on the woman, provided she is wearing a beautiful dress. In these types of covers the woman is usually standing or seated so you get a good look at the dress.

The style of cover varies from publisher to publisher depending on what kind of books they sell and who they target. You can still get shirtless cowboy cover books they just aren't your only option anymore.

(work in books hence why I bring it up)

No. 7700

>it's pretty funny to go into a male-dominated fandom space and start posting yaoi art of the characters for instance, they start freaking out over how female artists objectify men.
I do this too lmao, they freak out over it so hard even when it's tame and cute and not NSFW. I just love having this tiny little thing to get back at men for having to deal with my gender being objectified and sexualized all the time. They act like such babies about it too, men wouldn't survive if female gaze became more of a thing.

No. 7701

File: 1549838560361.jpg (Spoiler Image,679.99 KB, 722x1544, postcard11.jpg)

Speaking of darker art I really like the female artist Ayami Kojima. She paints some crazy shit and doesn't give a damn. Has a unique style and loves pretty men.

No. 7702

I think establishing an almost unique female gaze, as in THE female gaze will be pretty hard to do if we focus too much on the sexuality aspect to define it. In my experience, women have a very large set of what they find attractive and even that is contamined by male brainwashing (ie: young women finding old pork-like greasy men hot). All my female friends have different types. The "Chad"-like ideal we're supposed to find hot is actually…not that popular irl.

But when you look at what men find hot, while there are some varieties, it's pretty much the same thing. They like slim women, sometimes with big tits sometimes small but always the same kind of perky, hourglass or pear shaped, it's always the "ass or tits" debate. If you ask women, it wont be "ass or chest", it will be "clavicules, neck, forearms,…" the list goes on and on and on, hell, some women find ears super hot.

Irw non-sexual female gaze, I think the show Girls was rather female-gazey. It's a bad show and Lena Dunham is insufferable. I only watched the first 3 seasons when I was much younger than I am right now and hate the show at my current age but I think it does contain a purely female gaze.

Great thread OP and sorry if my post isnt making too much sense i'm a bit high.

No. 7703

yes i fucking love ayami kojima's art. all of her men are beautiful and feminine, but at the same time really masculine. the vulnerability of the men in her art is my favorite.

No. 7704

File: 1549839254055.png (408.35 KB, 654x918, nice2.png)

another good example. DAE not really like seeing men completely undressed, but love the act of watching him taking his clothes off or putting them on

No. 7705

File: 1549839488948.jpg (6.69 KB, 318x158, rudolphvalentino.jpg)

I think thats a bit over simplified. The most accurate way I've seen this described is as such:

Men have broader taste but for the most part they will agree with other men if a given woman is attractive or not. A man can like goth girls, milfs, musclegirls etc attractive. The man next to him might not like goth girls but their interests largely overlap. If the first guy doesn't get a goth gf going for the milf gf isn't a big bother.

Woman have more specific taste that they have stronger preferences for and their interests overlap less with other women. Just look at the Men You'd be Ashamed to Fuck thread in /g/ and you have women absolutely agog at how another woman may find a specific man attractive, they just don't see it. There is a small subset of men who are unusually handsome that appeal to a broader pool of women. I don't think women have the same expectation of ever really getting a guy like that though. The most broadly appealing men are the types that men seem the most puzzled by. The cute, kind of feminine boy band type that appeals to teen girls and young women has been popular for decades and each incarnation gets scorn from men for not being masculine enough. Pic related is an early example.

No. 7706

>I think female gaze and works pandering to women in a "trashy" way are put down harder than the male counterparts bc of plain misogyny.
God, this. Fujos are universally hated simply for liking fiction that panders to female gaze/sexuality and branded as vapid horny teenagers slamming each other with yaoi paddles and shamed for being "rape fetishists" due to extreme stereotypes of the genre. The same goes for any genre that panders to girls, it's thought of as trash simply because of being guilty of being liked by young women and girls. Like boy bands, they're thought of as the universal punch line and everyone agrees because everything related to femininity is always shameful.

Ellis is pretty on point with this video, especially the part when she brings up that it was mostly other girls hating on Twilight the most because they were desperate to distance themselves from the "lesser" girls. Women are always socialized to police each other because the society absolutely encourages it. And I say fuck that, women should be able to indulge themselves into fantasies that might be considered problematic. People might huff at men jacking it to the 9000 year old loli dragon but I never see nearly as much pure disdain for them as people have for girls who like girl stuff.

No. 7707

File: 1549839588821.jpg (67.01 KB, 846x562, IMG_20181016_070700.jpg)

Yes, also art of men tying their hair up or adjusting their clothes.

Sometimes it doesn't have to be BL, they're intimidated by any beautiful male character and it's almost hilarious.

No. 7708

Loved her work for Castlevania, her Alucard was the goat.

No. 7709

Thanks for the elaboration on Harley. I hadn't considered that people might connect to her reckless honesty about her impulses. I personally find her demeaning for a lot of reasons still but this goes to show how poorly represented and accepted women are if this janky character strikes a chord…

Thank you and all the other anons for the input on 50 Shades and YA novels.

The Hobbit is a shame but it's old fiction and very much a product of its time. What I can't stand is what they did with Tauriel, a movie-only character that they added specifically to add a woman to the roster and she was… she was a shitty love interest character. Evangeline Lily herself openly didn't want to play a love interest in a love triangle and they did it anyway. Despicable.

That's the artist from Castlevania right? I'm adding her to my list of badass artists ,somehow forgot to add her before even though I've seen her work before. For the next thread OP (if we make it that far) I will definitely make a nice list of films, artists, games, etc that we have mentioned in this thread. Hopefully we can grow a library of references!

Also vampires are kind of female gaze in general. Carnivorous seduction by graceful monsters is complex and erotic.

Yes so this is where I would hope to take the conversation next. Sex is a more transparent expression of gaze but eventually you have to be able to define other aspects of the construct. Especially for a female gaze, sex probably isn't the most dominant facet of it just by judging male libido vs female and how much it occupies each gender's mind comparatively.

We could probably connect male sexual simplicity and female sexual complexity to evolutionary traits though I don't necessarily want to go there in particular bc that is a path off topic imo. Just pointing out there are some patterns that follow.


That show definitely did things for my female gaze. Definitely very female in the topics it concerns itself with despite Lena being a garbage human. Also… Adam Driver is so ugly by "objective" standards but he can get it any day.

Yes to what you said. Also I love men in worth clothes and PJs. Not underwear or gym clothes but pajamas (i.e. some random tshirt and comfortable cotton long leg pants) are so sexy because it's intimate and not overtly sexual. I find men attractive when they do chores and go run errands with me. I like when they share the mundane moments and this seems to be very prevalent in how female gaze works. We want intimacy on more levels than sexual.

Shitting on other women for approval from men is a very real thing and is part of why men then go and call women catty. I have a set of rules for myself written down on an autistic .txt file and the #1 rule is
>1. Don’t betray your own gender for approval of any kind
The not like the other girl thing is the epitome of internalized misogyny. It's also garbo bc it gives men ammo like "well women are the ones that shit on other women for appearance, we're not the source of it". Sure Jan.

No. 7710

I think there's also the idea of "hurr durr reason >>> emotions" that's used to put such girly media dowm, because our culture doesn't value social competence and being able to figure out another person's intent, when it also requires understanding of subtle cues and problem solving skills and can be life saving. I'm not saying that girly YA novels are psychological masterpieces, but that generally anything with a focus on emotion is scoffed at and seen as irrational.

No. 7711

lol I definitely mean subjective i'm an idiot

No. 7712

>worth clothes
work clothes

No. 7713

The west has a very toxic view on emotions, unfortunately. A synthesis of the eastern intuition and the western appreciation for the material needs to happen if we want to promote a holistic approach to being human. Women get the shitty end of the stick because we acknowledge our feelings and are willing to experience and express them. Men feel shit too, and because they're so obsessed with denying it they turn to extremely frightening ideologies to cope with undigested emotional states.
Starting to steer away form the topic again, but I did want to chip in on that.

To bring it back to topic, the female gaze has the potential to promote what is traditionally deemed "feminine" and being exposed to that perspective could mend some of these gaps in the western cognition. Both genders exhibit behaviors that overlap so the way to make things less toxic for everyone involved is to promote the missing half. I resent that men and women are segregated from childhood, even in cartoons. It helps marketers sell shit if they divide the market into demographics but it does not actually serve humanity.

No. 7714


sage for blogpost.

this is majorly autistic but I have to chime in regards to fujos. I was a major fujo in my very early teens. I discovered hentai thru anime at a really young age and found yaoi content soon after that. A lot of hentai tropes are basically male gaze to the extreme (crazy proportions, passivity, female partner usually being explicitly raped or implicitly raped, etc.) and even then I knew I wasn’t into it.

I pretty much exclusively looked at mxm erotica for years for a multitude of issues not just relating to the treatment of female partners. I also rly hated myself and how my body looked and was very insecure about other women who I viewed as prettier (competition). plus the mxm content I viewed usually portrayed the men as equal partners and fully realized people. Oftentimes the content wasn’t even erotic - but I still viewed mxm content as “superior” because it didn’t have a woman to drag it down.

Then I grew up and became more secure in myself. I stopped viewing other women as competitors for male attention and that really was what made me stop viewing the content altogether.

a part of it was also the idea that I could enjoy the content without being a part of it. Voyuerism is definitely a huge part of a fujo’s proclivities. I didn’t have to imagine myself in the scene because I knew neither men would be attracted to me. It felt good to be able to sit back and watch instead of having to imagine the self performing, like in most of the fxm content that’s put out there.

now I look for more female-driven art and it’s honestly a real help. I honestly think there would be less fujos if there was more female-driven straight content. I haven’t viewed mxm stuff in a long time, although it sometimes pop up on my old tumblr. I don’t really view erotic content much anymore in general, but when I do, it very closely resembled what’s being posted here - the implication of vulnerability what I find most erotic in the art.

No. 7715

>This discourse again
Just because teenage fujos like to read male x male erotica due to their own insecurity doesn't mean that's all fujos are about. A lot of adult fujos enjoy the genre because it views men as vulnerable human beings (unlike a lot of other media), deals with a lot of emotions, is made by women, has sexual themes and sexually appealing characters made for the female gaze and has romance that isn't centered around a shitty interpretation of badly written female characters you can't identify with. BL isn't some poisonous smut made to ruin young girls and I fucking hate how so many people are twisting it to be like that and justify their views with horny teenager fanfiction. Most of the actual genre is aimed towards adult women. It's the prime example how another media popular with teenage girls is made to be woven from Satan's asshairs.

Nobody gives a shit about teenage boys loving lesbian porn or PoV porn because ~boys will be boys~, but the moment teenage girls experiment with their sexuality and write that over the top Katsuki x Kirishima fanfiction the world stops turning.

No. 7716

File: 1549841562322.jpg (71.79 KB, 1200x1011, DjPmlsTV4AAUWf3.jpg)

I really like ponytails (in theory and on models, a guy with long hair needs to take care of it) because you get that peek of the nape. It's an underrated male body part. Also, male necks are sexy because they look different than women's with the Adam's apple. IDK nothing deep to add here I just find a lot of subtle things like that erotic.

No. 7717


ayrt and I totally agree! fujos, be they young or old, get shit on so much for liking content that is seen as “deviant” but really isn’t all that bad. People go to some extremes to shame young girls for their interests. I can’t tell you how many posts in the day I’d see floating around on tumblr about how fujos are literally rape apologists who get off to the suffering of gay men and fetishize their relationships.

ofc this is old news to anyone remotely involved in this sort of discourse so yeah my post added absolutely nothing! you’re right on the money about yaoi/male x male content and its conventions that are so appealing to young women.

there are some more dubious parts of male x male content but the problems I see in the content are far more common in your run-of-the-mill content produced by any man, even if it’s not erotic. Yet these problems are amplified because it’s a woman thing and it’s obviously THE ABSOLUTE WORST.

meanwhile dudes can jack off to “stepdaughter slut jackhammered by stepdad’s cock” and not think twice.

why is men’s sexuality allowed to exist in a vacuum and women’s must be under public scrutiny? I get that it’s a larger part of misogyny to deny women’s sexuality but I don’t understand how men can be allowed to be so brazen while women can’t even peep that they might be into anything other than the tanned, oiled, and violent ideal.

No. 7718

Chill, she just shared her own experience. It's about the/her female gaze and relevant to the thread.

No. 7719

I don't think its fair to put down this anon's experience since she was talking about her personal relationship to it and not generalizing. Unless I am misunderstanding your intent.

For my part I will say a lot of het stuff features badly written women. The men get all the interesting characterization and the woman is a cardboard cutout or features stereotypical traits and tropes that put me off. And m/m stuff doesn't feature that same gender bullshit (different bullshit, sure) and the men are given more equal time and consideration in the writing. On top of that, two attractive dudes.

When it comes to OLDER stuff I think it needs to be critiqued differently. Might not be up to snuff now but it was novel at one point.

No. 7720

I could see it working, but you just know there would be pushback from scrotes.

No. 7721

Oh I used to be one of those handmaidens who kept policing other girls for what they liked, but completely turned my eyes off from the deviancy men were committing. It wasn't until I got older when I realized how much women were policed for their sexuality despite all the astroturfing concerning "female sexual liberation". Yeah you might have a female character in charge of her sexuality here and there but it's almost always played for laughs and condemned as complete chick flick garbage. I think the closest stuff for female pandering we have in the media are the Marvel movies because they have hot dudes being vulnerable and emotional.

Should've quoted the rest of the posts following to the particular anon, this one in particular just makes me want to rip my face off. >>7640 My apologies to the anon sharing her experience.

No. 7722

this. i love adam's apples and i love when the tendons stick out. i complimented my ex on that once and he was really confused, lmao

No. 7723

Interesting article about what the female gaze is, or if it exists, from the perspective of female cinematographers

Here's an interesting perspective that got me thinking, from Natasha Braier:

>“I don’t think there is such thing as the female gaze. I think there is such thing as the male gaze, as per Laura Mulvey’s theory, and that gaze, if you talk strictly about cinema only, has more than 100 years of monopoly. It colonized the new medium from the start. You could say that it has become the official language of cinema. The female gaze, if there is such, never had the opportunity to truly develop and become something we can analyze.

>I think every cinematographer has their own unique gaze, technical skills, and style regardless of their gender. And reducing things to two types of gaze doesn’t make much sense to me. Plus, we are always working with a director and putting our skills at the service of manifesting their vision. So the final ‘gaze’ is the result of the combination between these two artists creating a frame together.”



No. 7724

File: 1549843911438.jpg (Spoiler Image,67.58 KB, 360x594, sandow.jpg)

In trying to find some historical images to share it was very evident how recent any sort of female gaze is. Historically most artwork (painting and sculpture) in the West was funded either by wealthy patrons (men) or by the church. So there are tons of female nudes and we can point to historic women who were renown for their beauty. By contrast it is much harder to point at male examples though I think you could argue they exist (especially when crafted by gay artists). There are apocryphal stories of Medieval women lusting over portraits of St Sebastian but I can't verify.

We start to see a shift once new printing processes make mass media a possibility and art becomes commercial.

The first male model of note I can find is Eugene Sandow (pic related), father of bodybuilding. He developed a physique many people thought was impossible. He pictured himself against Grecian backdrops and covered himself in fig leaves to look respectably artistic, and at shows invited women to touch his biceps. While his later books and talk circuits about bodybuilding were aimed at men throughout his career he aimed at appealing to women. Perhaps the first time the women at his shows was appealed to in that way.

Interesting bit of history, if anyone knows an earlier example please share.

No. 7725

I could really imagine the visuals, anon. Yum and sweet. (Why can't men be more like thi? :()

No. 7726

>I think there is such thing as the male gaze, as per Laura Mulvey’s theory, and that gaze, if you talk strictly about cinema only, has more than 100 years of monopoly. It colonized the new medium from the start. You could say that it has become the official language of cinema.
This point has actually been brought up earlier in the thread. The greater hope and purpose of the thread really is to construct a female gaze moving forward, particularly in a younger medium that doesn't have everything figured out such as video games. I touch on this here >>7612
>Video games could be the space to try and invent it. You have to remember that the way male gaze is executed in film is heavily through cinematic language that men influenced. Video games are a young art form and the theory, take it from someone that studied it, is really really lackluster. We don't have the profound academic theory to back up games that cinema has. It's going to happen as the medium matures and I personally predict Kojima's new project will probably do some Citizen Kane shit for games. It's in inventing new solutions to problems and creating methods which academics then can analyze to break down to theory in how it all works.

Cinematographers do have individual gaze and style but it is contradictory to go from "there is no female gaze bc the theory is created by men in cinema" to "but we are all individuals and our voices are enough" because by her own admission, cinematography also deploys the language of cinema which is largely defined by the male gaze. See where I'm going with this? Cinematography is inherently not divorced from the rest of film theory. What we call style starts off derivative. What is there to be inspired by? Works that are created through a male perspective. How can a cinematographer achieve female gaze if what they have to look at as a starting point is biased? Women being part of the medium is a huge step but I am not really convinced cinema can actually achieve a true female gaze.

What I believe can happen is the female gaze can come into play with young art media (as in plural of medium) with little theory and those new media can then influence cinema where we can appropriate the female gaze. Does this make sense? I'm getting rambly.

No. 7727

File: 1549846187002.jpg (55.55 KB, 633x375, jcleyendecker.jpg)


Sandow aside, and local theater actors aside, the first major male sex symbol in the West (in America at least) was the Arrow Collar Man, the face of highly successful ad campaign that began its run in 1905. Crafted by the gay male artist JC Leyendecker, the Arrow Collar man was an immediate hit and the Arrow Collar Man campaign is considered one of the most successful ad campaigns in history. Mass printing technologies and more mature distribution networks gave him reach no stage actor (or film actor) could rival (at least not until film got better distribution).

Women loved the Arrow Collar Man, OG Western husbando. At this point in time the advertising industry was well aware of how valuable women could be as consumers, past the days of patronage women were now targets of artwork but this marks the first time they were appealed to so pointedly and on such a scale (women did much of the shopping for their husbands then as now). Of course many men bought the collars for themselves. The company received hundreds of fan letters.

Here's a really interesting article about it: https://archive.org/stream/pho28chic#page/n775/mode/2up

Interesting to note in that article, that in the early days of film the handsome male leads were usually very young, younger than 25, to match the female audience. By 1925 (date of article) the young leading men were being replaced by older actors, to the consternation of young women. In the early days of cinema women made a larger share of writers, directors and producers and got edged out as the industry consolidated through the 1920s.

No. 7728

i think there's a lot of overlap between female gaze and male self insert stuff, i think there's a lot of overlap the opposite way too. all of this stuff has little to nothing to do with the intention of the creator, and everything to do with the consumer so i think it's pretty unimportant.

No. 7729

Watching Russian Doll on Netflix. All-female writers and it shows imo, though not really Girls type subject matter. Recommended for anons looking for that kinda jam.

No. 7730

Agreed. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the individual's taste, as seen a few times itt already.

No. 7731

I think that Wynonna Earp (Sy-Fi show) can be very female-gazey, which makes sense to me given that its showrunner is a feminist woman.

A scene that sticks out to me explicitly is in episode 1 of Season 2, where there is a woman on woman fight with one of the women being in underwear - and it isn't sexualized at all. IIRC there is a similarly unsexy shower scene in the following episode.

Another scene that comes to mind is one that flips a common male-fantasy trope on its head by filming a cheerleading dance scene wherein the woman doing it is doing it for the pleasure of her girlfriend, rather than for a man. It's sexual, but also sensual and incredibly feminine.

No. 7732

i don't know why the truth being said angers you, i didn't say "death to all fujos omg stop fetishizing our innocent gay boys y'all are evil!!!". but reading ex-fujos' explanations, a lot of them say that they were insecure about other women, it obviously has to do with voyeurism and a lot of fujos turn out to be fakebois because of internalized misogyny. if you think i'm wrong then come and explain why, you are not proving me wrong by simply just getting defensive. i've read the anon's explanation and i understand how the lack of straight content made for women effects things. you don't have to justify getting off to yaoi, if that's what gets you going it's cool, but a lot of fujos seem to be doing what they do because of the reasons i've said.

No. 7733

NTA complaining about fujos, but just because I think the majority of the content they produce is trashy doesn't mean that I shame them for exploring their sexuality or that I don't feel disguated by guys and their porn.

I don't care if they find rape kinky, I dislike their content because the characters are mostly ooc and pushed into generic tropes, the sex ignores a lot of things the characters would have to work around, and it's insulting how often one plays the role of a "woman" instead of just being himself.

Do I like good BL? Yes.Do I hate it when I follow a series and suddenly the hot arrogant rival is turned into an "uwu what are we going to do on the bed" self insert? Absolutely.

It doesn't mean that any criticism towards fujos should be wrapped into "you are shaming female sexuality", I usually only like a few artists per fandom who draw such stuff.

No. 7734


I was the anon and what you said was totally justified - it was all very very true. I wasn’t so much trying to justify what I was into (since I’m not into yaoi anymore). My personal experience was totally influenced by the characteristics you specifically mentioned, and I delved deeper in a reply.

I didn’t think you were shaming at all, just calling out that the discourse is old and we been knew why fujos do what they do. Internalized misogyny is probably the biggest kicker and here’s something else - I have a sister and we were both fujos, but she turned into a fakeboi while I had an eating disorder. male/male content definitely creates a lot of self hatred in a lot of young women.


very true - a lot of BL content falls into troupes seen in F/M content, which can be tiresome if you’re trying to use it as a piece of escapism. A lot of stuff is dubious but all in all, I really don’t think some characters having a trite plot or ooc characters is the worst of the issues when we have straight content that’s dominated by seeing rape and abuse played out in front of you.

No. 7735

File: 1549891761113.png (349.41 KB, 495x354, 873135105052.png)

>i appreciate how nice his profile is when he turns his head, i love the movement of him rolling up his shirt sleeves. it's really, really the little things.

Oh anon I relate so much to what you're describing!
I often end up staring at my partner's profile and complimenting things like noses, hands and legs more than some of the other physical traits (in either sex) that are generally more central in media.

I have had an aversion (for lack of better word) towards very defined muscular bodies since I was a young girl and reading this thread I'm starting to think that maybe this aversion is not as much about the body and its specific expression more so than it is the typical context (often focussed on power and dominance) and setting you see especially muscular men potrayed in.

I love the composition of these pics maybe it plays off of being able to observe men doing trivial things like you mentioned without necessarily being noticed or paid attention to yourself. Them being exposed and open, or natural if you will, as opposed to posturing.

>I think the show Girls was rather female-gazey

I agree with you anons about the show, while being pretty, having what you could call a female gaze or at least a female starting point.

>I also want to hear some feedback on female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists"

I think some of the problems I have had with female protagonists in YA have been how cookie cutter they seemingly are often lacking nuances, depth and character development. It just felt like a lot of Mary Sues kept popping up everywhere alogn with their nondescript friend characters accompanying them on their adventures regardless of whether it was more classical fantasy, dystopian or contemporary fiction.
It should be noted though that these points could also apply to many books pandering to males i.e. commercialised, formulaic, simplistic and stereotypical you could go on and on.

I'm sorry if it comes across as shitting on books and literature that is enjoyed by a lot of people I'm just trying to share my experiences and thoughts on why/how people end up putting down genres like YA (in broad terms).

>erotic visual media vs erotic written medium

I think both can have potential to be exciting and when poorly executed can in turn have potential to be very entertaining from pure cringiness. That being said, I actually don't think I can recall ever having come across erotic writing that I didn't find cringe-worthy to some extent.

No. 7736

I loved that show! Would reccomand to everyone. It doesnt remind me of HBO Girls at all.

Yes. I remember how all of my male friends, while acknowledging some good writing, just simply couldnt get into it at all. I remember someone critic saying the show is unrealistic because "ugly girls get hot guys" (which isnt even all that true, except for a few of Hana's boyfriends) but every single other media piece has absolutely disgusting men getting 10/10 hotties.

This whole thing kinda bums me out. I'm taking videography class this year at college and even though my art school is very non-academic and open, my videography teacher is incredibly anal about the rules of editing and frames and the pov of the camera etc… I purposefully chose to work on subjects that have nothing to do with sexuality, gender/sex, men, women, whatever because I know he would hate all of it and I'm already branded as the annoying terf mysandrist. I saw some other girls get absolutely humiliated by him because of the way they filmed.

No. 7737

The only example of "female gaze" I can think of right now is Riverdale. It features a lot of attractive actors who are well-built and of various ages working out, doing manual labour, fighting, wrestling, playing American football etc. which is pretty visually attractive. There are also lots of scenes of men protecting or caring for their girlfriends/love interests which I imagine wouldn't appeal to men. Basically any scene with a couple in it will show them kissing to greet or say goodbye to each other. It caters a lot to the male gaze as well with its female characters (stripping, sexy singing, lesbian kiss scenes, dominatrices) but it's pretty balanced.

No. 7738

also it's a hot mess. idk I guess you could say it has elements of female gaze but for me personally all the hot lesbian and 25 year old looking, fully ripped 15 year olds seem very male gaze-y. it's like those muscular men bodice ripper covers but 40 minutes an episode long. honestly if it wasn't for the pretty lighting they'd have never gotten further than season 1

No. 7739

hot lesbian action, jfc

No. 7740

I hate watch it and I do appreciate that there is a lot in it for men to look at too but the majority of the people I see talking about it online are young women who like the romantic elements. I remember seeing "Daddies of Riverdale" a lot lmao.

No. 7741

I hate watch it too bc of how bad it is like the entire G&G subplot retroactively rewriting the previous episodes, oof and it definitely has a predominateley female fan base but I think its because it falls in the genre of "hot teen highschool show made by men to capitalise on young women" category and it does it well. Teen wolf is another one like that; haven't watched either, but from what I've gathered, I imagine Vampire Diaries and Gossip Girl are in the same group as well.
If I had to nominate a more female-gaze-y teen tv show I'd say Veronica Mars possibly, although it was written by a man, from what I remember Veronica was fairly multi-faceted and her romance was handled more on her terms (correct me if my memory is making it out better than it actually was lmao).

No. 7742

I think what made Veronica Mars such a good show with a strong female gaze is because it had a very strong female lead, and I don’t mean in the way that most interpret it - an agreesive and violent woman (hyper masculine) doesn’t immediately make her a strong female character. Veronica was assertive, was flawed and recognised said flaws, didn’t care about whether or not her behaviour aligned with what people wanted from her, was empathetic and multifaceted like a real human being. The story also closely followed her life and showed true character growth and her struggles, it had a huge focus on female friendship and her partners were truly infatuated with her. And that to me is the female gaze

No. 7743

>shitty videography prof
Do you have any anecdotes about him that specifically show him trying to force a male perspective on a student trying to execute their vision? Could be cool to hear.

Oh Riverdale, my hatewatch… There are a bunch of male serving lesbian fanservice scenes and the dudes that are shirtless are routinely commented on as looking absurd for doing it. It's more just trashy and tries to hard to give fanservice to both genders and looks stupid doing it imo. I wouldn't call it female gaze tbh, it's just trying to sexualize all of its actors. People still unironically ship characters and want to fuck Archie and stuff but that doesn't even require female gaze. People have a low bar for their tastes and it is indeed true that the melodrama is the main reason women flock to it. Hatewatch or no, the genre statistically has a lot to do with what we choose to view.

As we all probably noticed, women seem to have more of an interest in character driven drama as opposed to men. You could probably compare this to how men seem to prefer action that doesn't have any reason behind it. These respective genres could probably be key to the gaze itself if we were to develop the language of it in cinema.

I hate that even in drama-driven period fiction there are so many historical inaccuracies yet women are pushed around and shown as meat as if the viewership isn't considerably tipped in favor of women. Are these kids of scenes just there as a treat for the boyfriend who has to watch the show with the woman? I'd dump my bf before I let him enjoy a woman getting shit on bc muh historical accuracy when the king has a Hitler Youth haircut and is speaking colloquially with his servants.

One last note, how did you anons feel about Jessica Jones' writing in particular? She's meant to be a strong female protag but I kinda felt like she was written almost exactly like a male in a superhero noir setting. One night stands, excessive aggression, stoic expressions and lame one liners. I regard it as a character written as male with a woman's body slapped on. I didn't finish the first season because the writing bugged me so much. What do you think?

No. 7744

Samefag but a lot of the issues that also cropped up throughout the story were also ones with predominantly female victims; rape, stalking, and they were all handled quite well with the main characters interacting with it in an empathetic manner, at least from what I remember they did. I haven’t watched the show in years

No. 7745

>she was written almost exactly like a male in a superhero noir setting

That’s my biggest issue with ‘strong female characters’. Creators seem to think that means the women should be as masculine as possible rather than portraying their feminine qualities as desirable

No. 7746

Yup, this is the wrong way to write a woman imo. But this is also why it's important to develop a female perspective on cinema/tv and have writers and directors that approach the subject with self-awareness. Female writer's room isn't even enough sometimes. Women are capable of perpetuating shitty writing as well afterall.

I praised Russian Doll earlier and I still stand by it but the protagonist in that also had this weird old jewish man attitude which took me out of the show all the time. I did read that the writers purposely cast Allan and Nadia in roles that would be played by the opposite gender traditionally so I understand. That was all intentional. The rest of the show had a lot of emotional sensitivity and nuance, had a lot of really cool female characters and satisfied my craving.

No. 7747

hell yeah, veronica mars appreciation! I really loved the show when I was like 14, 15, watched lots of shows back then but Veronica was the only female character that I actually looked up to, glad it wasn't just me romanticising it and thank you for putting it in words much better than I could! too bad the final season went really tits up and then the movie was just spitting on the grave really also logan's actor aged terribly :-(

I wonder is Buffy similar at all when it comes to a well-developed female protag? I was too young to watch it when it came out and so I never did but recently have been considering giving it a shot.

No. 7748

I will never forgive them for making her a lawyer.

No. 7749

that was a straight up crime

No. 7750

File: 1549936747659.png (433.19 KB, 489x696, 9587.png)

autistic rambling incoming.
this thread has made me think a lot lately on why i find what i find personally attractive in males. this topic is great, and i want to keep the conversation going. i always thought that my preferences were strange, until i discussed this thing more and more with different female friends as i got older.

what makes a man grab my attention? women are visual too; it's how people make first impressions. visuals have a lot to do with the erotic appeal of a man. it's just not what the visuals that they like in women. we've mentioned in the thread before that they're these fleeting minute details, things they naturally do that reveal to us his character. moments where there's this vulnerable aspect of a man's masculinity that they don't even notice sometimes, i think. not vulnerable in the way where he's suddenly not masculine, just vulnerable in that he's comfortable, confident. the positive traits or what we'd stereotypically consider masculine.

there's also the concept of male gaze vs female gaze- what our eyes are typically (since obviously there are exceptions) drawn to, and what the implications of that means, or why it is this way.

i feel men hyperfixate on the more obvious sexual characteristics of a woman, hence why things get really exaggerated (and imo, disgusting) in porn. it explains why men think female pandering = shirtless men with bulging muscles. that always made me feel alienated because that doesn't appeal to me at all, it felt so needlessly exaggerated. (does anyone else think the really niche deviantart eqsue fetishes are typically drawn/consumed by males? that would explain a lot.)

it makes me wonder why men fantasize about unnatural things. they really get stuck in particular fantasies that are more unrealistic than ones women tend to have.

in my experience, girls tend to focus more on a man's character, or a man's bone structure, or his temperament. again, there are exceptions, but how many girls swoon over a guy's jawline? i think we are more attracted to positive masculine traits, while men are more attracted to exaggerated female traits. am i getting somewhere here?

No. 7751

I dunno about it being more rare for women to be into bizarre, unusual fetishes. I am involved with a strange fetish community and run into far more women than I thought I would. I think that women just aren't socialized to be as open about sexuality, and some of the autists in these communities can get pretty aggressive. I know some women that pretend to be male or make no indication towards their sex online because of this. Most of the women I've talked to were in denial about their fetishes for a long time or were unaware that they were even really aroused, myself included. There seems to be a lot more shame, even anonymous online.
The main difference between male and female content I've found is that when women make fetish artwork they tend to add a lot more context to it. A man may post a fetish picture on its own, but women tend to give it a story, even if it's only a paragraph long. Women also seem to consume and create more written erotica than just plain drawings, and have more OCs they use for a longer time than just one-shot stories.

No. 7752

File: 1549941465893.jpg (50.89 KB, 500x335, tumblr_inline_oe8bqtEIWv1rrhlo…)

Relevent long tumblr post about George of the Jungle and the female gaze this thread reminded me of: http://ms-demeanor.tumblr.com/post/151068279457/bifca-justplainsomething-nakedsasquatch

No. 7753

I’d rather see a man roll up his sleeves than take off his shirt any day

I agree, women tend to focus on more subtle details that compliment the overall figure/image; eyes, jaws, veins, the way they smile, aloof/relaxed body language

As a lot of anons have also mentioned, regardless of whether or not it is sexual, the female gaze is very character focused. We want to see characters interact, evolve, drive stories forward and we catch onto little details that help further illustrate their individuality; clothing, mannerisms, patterns of behaviour

But also from what I’ve seen from female dominated fandoms and just celebrity crushes in general women tend to be drawn to the feminine qualities of men, whether it’s pretty and soft features or more stereotypically feminine interests and mannerisms

No. 7754

No. 7755

anyone claiming women as a whole have the same sexuality are retarded. also you could say the exact same shit itt about men. "casting couch" porn (a story), having a thing for chokers on women, etc.

No. 7756

File: 1549944065359.jpg (541.67 KB, 1398x1836, alice.jpg)

I know some anons here seem to feel pessimistic about women in film or that there wasn't a chance to develop a film language without the influence of the Male Gaze. I don't think that is all quite true. When film was a new you had lots of women experimenting in what was then a novel medium.

Pictured is Alice Guy Blache, the first female film maker and the first the develop narrative film. The films may be primitive now but the silent film era would be an interesting source of female perspective in film before the consolidation of male perspectives and tropes. I don't think you can claim pioneers like Alice were conditioned into following conventions that hadn't been invented yet.

No. 7757

most women are not involved in fandoms and read fanfiction LOL. i know you hang out on nerdy websites a lot but you need to hang out with normies some more.

No. 7758

You can look at how children play to see some of this disparity. Little girls can play with cars or action figures or dolls, the toys vary but the way they play is with narrative. They construct characters and stories. Boys line their toys up and make them power up and kill each other like in Dragon Ball.

No. 7759

is something wrong with you?

No. 7760

most western women prefer masculine men. most eastern-asian women prefer feminine men. not counting fandom nerd shit.

No. 7761

The disparity being an affinity for narrative vs extremity and excess. Is something wrong with you?

The person I responded to was pointing out how women add narrative context to the porn they create, which is also true for art in general that they create. It also applies to early behavior like playing pretend. If you hear "gaze" and only expect sex to be the subject you're an actual ape.

No. 7762

>celebrity crushes in general
I wasn’t saying all women are the same or in fandoms, I was pointing out that in both spheres women more often than not have similar focuses. Maybe work on your reading comprehension before you make fun of people

No. 7763

You realise men can be overall masculine while still have very desirable feminine features, right? Even if you look in the threads on /g you’ll see majority of the men will have a handful of attractive feminine features

No. 7764

your comparison was bad, that was my point. it has little to do with what anon was even saying about socialization.

No. 7765

Do anons ITT read fandom and just think of shit like anime’s and marvel? There are fan communities for nerdy shit, I’d say book clubs would count as fandoms as they revolve around discussions of fictional work and people become extremely invested. You guys really need to expand your world views and realise that not everything is weebs vs normies, most people don’t fit into either category.

No. 7766

What point you were making was extremely unclear but ok sis.
>The main difference between male and female content I've found is that when women make fetish artwork they tend to add a lot more context to it. A man may post a fetish picture on its own, but women tend to give it a story, even if it's only a paragraph long. Women also seem to consume and create more written erotica than just plain drawings, and have more OCs they use for a longer time than just one-shot stories.
This is what I was responding to and it is relevant.

No. 7767

gender differences and socialization are different things.

No. 7768

pls dont taint the thread with infighting ree

No. 7769

smells like scrotes lurking around

No. 7770

What would they even benefit from mucking up a thread like this? Learn more about female attraction and instead go, 'no' and mess it up for everyone? Why?

I'm a bit skeptical of this. I grew up around a lot of children (neighbors) and while the girls may not have been as rough and tumble we did play with the boys so long as we were using toys everyone liked. Everyone agreed animal toys were badass. There were lots of beat em ups and death in our games but everything was backed with longwinded, nonsensical narratives. You could get both camps on the same wave length more or less with the right toys.

No. 7771

This anime is amazing and the ending… is one of the best endings ever written. Fujiko is my number one inspiration

No. 7772

>instead go 'no'
Uh yeah actually. You hit the nail on the head. All it takes is one insecure incel.

No. 7773

I'm tired of the toy bullshit because scrotes use it to push some incredibly dumb narratives.

I could never like free because of the artstyle, especially the muscles.

No. 7774

That's not true… Are your only references kpop for the East and the typical chad frat boy for the west ? Do you consider Turkey and Eastern Europe as the west or the east ?

No. 7775

Fair enough. I was going off kids I've observed and they were probably affected by how they were socialized.

No. 7776

File: 1549960442740.jpg (205.17 KB, 1264x749, Céline-fall-2012-ad-campaign3…)

of interest to you all might be a look at the fashion world. my apologies for the link being from Vox, of all places, but this explanation as well as the links within it - of the changes at Céline, which was one of very few fashion houses helmed by women and one that had always been for women (no men's line), loved by female critics and never quite understood by male critics under the direction of Phoebe Philo. last year Phoebe exited the house and was replaced by Hedi Slimane, probably one of the most misogynistic and one-note designers around… who added a pointless mens' line and has deflected critique of his badly-received complete overhaul with accusations of homophobia.. it's all explained better in here. but if you look at Philo's work and her visual research diaries, I think that there's a definite idea of a strong "female gaze"…


No. 7777

Piggy backing off of this, I’d say fashion and textiles is a big part of the female gaze - you can definitely tell when the costume designers of a movie/show are female.

No. 7778

File: 1549962590442.png (272.49 KB, 500x335, ndxbdz5lHR1t55umvo2_500.png)

>What would they even benefit from mucking up a thread like this? Learn more about female attraction and instead go, 'no' and mess it up for everyone? Why?
NTA, but many men are obsessed with telling us what we like, saying we "don't know what we want" and are constantly throwing tantrums when we don't follow the narrative they carved out for us in their own heads.
This thread would be ragefuel for your typical male who believes women are "biologically inclined" to like huge, hairy, 45-year old cavemen "Chads" and secretly love rape porn.

They still think shirtless, hyper-muscular men in media is fanservice for women, and that those cringy romance novel covers are our idea of "sexy", and nothing we say will ever convince them otherwise. In fact, anything less will make them angry. They'd argue to the death about it.

A thread like this could not exist on /tv/, /a/ or even /co/. Too many idiotic, presumptuous men.
Thankfully, this thread seems free of them and the autism they bring.

No. 7779

File: 1549963358752.jpeg (47.11 KB, 678x452, 863A2B47-3EF0-4F96-B88D-9DE8B1…)

Wholeheartedly recommend Miss Fisher’s Murder Mysteries for lovers strong female leads and the female gaze. Story, characters, costumes, music, it’s all excellent.

No. 7780

File: 1549965160262.png (571.28 KB, 800x600, scaryfemalegaze.png)

Yes, men have this tendency to want to dictate what women should want (the same things as them) and they get angry and uncomfortable when confronted with reality. Like how teenage girls like cute boybands which is bad because they should like…ugly 40 yo he-mans or something.

Also see >>7682 and >>7684

No. 7781

File: 1549965545731.png (802.31 KB, 974x525, photoplayjanuary1925.png)

Have to bring up a screenshot of a quote from that Photoplay article from >>7727,

Men have absolutely been trying to dictate what young women should like or ages.

No. 7782

Kek what a load of bullshit that paragraph is
It’s also incredible to see that incel type men think the same delusional way today

No. 7783

This might have been OK if the leading men were older to appeal to women in the same age group. But that isn't mentioned and the paragraph is ordered after the young woman's complaint so it s really just seems like she's being told her preferences are wrong.

No. 7784

Men will never rest until all (young) women feel obligated to direct their interest exclusively towards men who are older and less attractive than themselves, huh. It's so calculated and intentional it makes me sick. Even worse that it works and so many women actually think that's their natural preference in men.

No. 7785

File: 1549970458710.jpg (30.6 KB, 512x384, lisa_simpson_non-threatening_b…)

It's to the point where they even get buttmad when pubescent/prepubescent girls like guys who are actually closer to their age. I know it's a joke, but you can absolutely taste the male salt in a title like "Non-threatening Boys", kek. So, women and girls should want to be threatened? Nice.
I'm just glad that shit never worked on me. I will never be convinced into thinking there's something attractive about ugly, dusty, haggard old fucks. It doesn't even make sense from a biological standpoint.

No. 7786

File: 1549971093555.jpeg (66.21 KB, 561x785, biebs.jpeg)

God you reminded me of the jealous bullying smol biebs had to endure from adult men, shit was fucked up

No. 7787

You know how when women even make valid complaits about sexist and objectifying portrayals of women in media, and men respond with "you're just jealous" and "ugly feminists" and things like that? It's projection. They get jealous when girls simply like cute young guys.

No. 7788

Another thing is the push to call beautiful men gay,ugh.

And nowadays in the woke era it's kind of ironic that this idea of men and fictional men being gay is actually widely embraced and progressive. That being said I don't have anything against gay people but one thing is when someone is happy with their sexuality, another thing is when creepy fans forcibly speculate.

No. 7789

>non-threatening boys

I’ve never understood why this is made fun of, doesn’t it just go without saying that people don’t want to be threatened by their romantic interests. Only an ape would consider that to be an issue

No. 7790

The gossip girl series is a masterpiece and I'll fight whoever disagrees. I wouldn't even say it has a female gaze only because it transcends such definitions, but yeah. The girls are never portrayed in a male-appealing context, and although there's romantic relationships and occasionally women competing for a guy, it's always from a female perspective. It explores the majorly-female social relations and hierarchies so deeply and with such richness of detail.

Everyone girl worth her salt should watch gossip girl.

No. 7791

Very interesting! A great exemple of female gaze in fashion was always Vivienne Westwood to me, and back in the day, Sonia Ryekel. Like, you could see it even in their commercials. (side note: as much as I hate Slimane as a person and don't agree with his fashion, I must give him that he has amazing runaway music taste)

No. 7792

File: 1549993774613.jpg (75.63 KB, 1500x1000, ugh.jpg)

I am terribly sad about the effective death of Celine. It's always been a brand I've loved and respected and why they decided to move to a pig like Hedi is completely and utterly beyond me.

Compare the old collections to the new and you'll see how gaudy it became. Celine used to make women feel powerful and in control with the iconic designs inspired by working women, Hedi's new vision is reverting the brand to some dated idea of women in sequin dresses and general party outfits. Also the addition of a men's line at all. I am furious.

It serves men for us to think we are at our "prime" at a barely legal age, somehow. The older men go and prey on young girls which they then complain are too immature and unstable or some bullshit. Women their actual age are ofc so haggard and hysterical. Look in the motherfucking mirror! I've loved myself and being a woman more and more as I aged and I'll die before I let these creepy pieces of shit devalue my identity because they want to fuck people with undeveloped brains.

Do you anons think there's an increase in older women being given roles where they aren't insane hags, husbandless sexpots, or mothers? I want to be able to see more badass older women that I can look up to or feel vicarious thrills from. It should be essential to fix the average person's view of when women "age out" of being taken seriously. Silver Fox completely also applies to women imo but is not a something people consider it seems.

Toni Colette and Cate Blanchett are probably my two favorite older women right now. I think they have increible presence and energy.

No. 7793

I don't know if this relevant or not but I thought this list may present examples of 'female gaze' from movies.

No. 7794

It’s weeby, but the female gaze is why I got into lolita fashion. i love wearing it because men leave me alone and think im a weirdo, it’s modest but not in an ugly fundie christian way, it’s just cute clothing. I think a lot of alternative fashion subcultures center around a female gaze, since women are the ones developing these styles.

No. 7795

Perhaps the drawback is that the men it does attract are the REALLY weird kind.

No. 7796

Didn't the comms have issues with the fashion being a Sissy magnet?

No. 7797

Fucking American Psycho is female gaze now? That list is… interesting. So the site is just reviews and you can arrange films in a list, right? I would have liked some commentary from the person who made the list but I suppose it's not within the framework of the site.

I have a mixed up view on lolita. On one hand I like that it is definitely not for men at all, that's a rare space in fashion. On the other hand people that are super into weebshit like that are usually mentally ill autists. Not saying you are one, I've met people into lolita that just like it bc it's cute and don't take it to some weird obsessive place. The association turns me off, though. I'm also more interested in seeing women as grown adults, so lolita's infantilized saccharine aesthetic is offputting for me.

When I think of the female gaze in music, the first person that comes to my mind is Bjork. I love the messiness of her emotions and how she has vulnerability that is simultaneously violent. She isn't really presented to be attractive imo, she is presented as a raw and present woman. She can't be contained, her core is explosive. Her songs are outstanding. Do let me know what musicians get you in your femininity!

No. 7798

Been looking for articles that talk about gaze in music after I brought up Bjork and found one somewhat about her, though it spends most of its time putting Beyonce on a pedestal for Lemonade. I find Beyonce's particular brand for feminism and expression to be stale and insincere but that's besides the topic. The following snippet is fascinating:

"…despite the universality of heartbreak, the terrain in which female popstars find themselves on has, historically, been rocky. In music, it has always felt like broken hearts are inherently gendered. Female artists who dare unleash their emotions are often labelled “confessional” singer-songwriters, while their male counterparts are seen as “lyricists”. “Confession is somebody trying to beat something out of you externally,” said Joni Mitchell, who herself released quintessential heartbreak album Blue and has rallied against a "confessional" label her entire career. “You’re imprisoned. You’re captured. They’re trying to get you to admit something. To humiliate and degrade yourself and put yourself in a bad position.”

It’s not just labels we’ve seen traditionally attached to female artists, but limitations too. The pain of Lemonade and Vulnicura is loud, ugly and shameless, but they are groundbreaking exceptions to the pop rule – it’s no secret that a lot of society still finds women who show these emotions as threatening. When women are angry, they are supposed to be sexy too, like Taylor Swift in Red. When women are hurting, they are supposed to be dignified with it, like Adele in 21. And when women are depressed, they have to be so with the utmost poeticism, like Amy Winehouse in Back to Black.

When women do unleash, there's the expectation that they must direct it inwards, towards themselves, in an act of romanticised destruction, like Lana Del Rey in Ultraviolence. When it’s expressed outwardly, it’s considered too aggressive to be normal. Rest assured, if a woman had written Eminem’s The Marshall Mathers LP, she’s more likely to have been labelled “unhinged” than given awards, and if a woman had released any of Drake’s tracks, you can bet your house she’d be castigated as “too needy.”

No. 7799

>I want to be able to see more badass older women that I can look up to or feel vicarious thrills from

God I love to see bad ass older women in movies and media, especially when I can think to myself "I might become like them" (but, like, in a positive light). I'm tired of the 40 year old that physicly look 25 and are still at the mercy of men. There's this croatian show, it's not female-gazey at all but there is this one character, she's in her late 40s and she's kinda lame in a lot of aspects (alcoholic) but she's intelligent, extremly talented at her job, competent, respected and doesnt take shit from people and she looks like a late 40 yo women generally looks. She has put up a bit weight, some grey hairs and eyebags. I love her so much.

No. 7800

Everything is a sissy magnet to mentally ill men. I’m not going to let how men behave stop me from enjoying what I love. It’s hard enough being a woman sometimes.

>I'm also more interested in seeing women as grown adults, so lolita's infantilized saccharine aesthetic is offputting for me.

That’s fair. Alternative fashions that stand out absolutely attract weirdos, attention seekers, and unstable weens. But there’s more to lolita than just the super sweet OTT kind. Even then, if done right you should look more like someone from candyland, not a literal child. There’s nothing childish about classic or gothic though.

Most lolita brands are made and designed solely by women, which is different from other fashions, even most couture is run solely by gay men.

No. 7801

Probably referring to the first ten minutes of the movie (where he does his skincare and works out) as female gaze-y, which is a pretty shallow and male-centric view of what women find attractive, I think.

As for musicians that get me in my femininity, I’m Lin love with mitski.

No. 7802


agree anon, i don't think kids are influenced by gender roles until someone comments on, for example the toys they play with. in my experience kids are open to whatever narrative the others pick, i think it's very demonstrative in how kids are socialized into liking different things, because when there are no stupid gender restrictions, kids will do whatever they want, and it's based more in personality traits than "i'm a girl so i'm going to play with [insert girl toy here]." that sort of thinking is what they're socialized into, it's not inherent at all. i had an older brother and liked both his stereotypical male toys and my own super girly toys too. kids don't give a fuck.

No. 7803

another croanon here, which show are you talking about?

No. 7804

I'm the one that made the children playing comment and I just want to point out I wasn't commenting on what toys they choose. I was commenting on how they use the toys. A world of difference and I want to make sure my idea isn't misrepresented.

My point was: no matter what toys they pick, girls seem to pursue narrative depth while boys seem to pursue action and excess, as mirrored in the fan content the genders create.

No. 7805

american psycho always has appealed to me because of how the film (i plan on reading the book but still haven't) makes no attempt at giving bateman any sympathy or redemption. it shows that many men lack empathy and are capable of the worst deeds. i feel too many media where the antagonist is male try to sympathy bait. american psycho doesn't do that at all. even the ending says a lot. he gets away with it, like many men are able to get away with heinous crimes irl.

that being said, the film is also very aesthetically pleasing, if not eerily bare, which stylistically makes sense given the nature of bateman's character and all. i think it's very possible some male directors (for example) can create female gaze-y films, i'd say wes anderson's films really appeal to me.

No. 7806

i disagree still. it's not inherent, they're socialized into slowly playing that way. but i can still see where you're coming from.

No. 7807

I think it may have also be due to the fact that it was directed by a woman. I've always liked the movie a lot too, so seeing it in the list made sense to me, for purely subjective reasons.

No. 7808

bjork is amazing, and i love mitski too!
i love a lot of female artists, but i think the ones who seem the most outspoken about how they express their femininity would be cherry glazerr (vid related, that song is so powerful and i highly recommend it), japanese breakfast, varsity, courtney barnett, and portishead.

No. 7809

samefag, here's another one i really like. interviews with the lead are neat, i like how unapologetic clementine is about her experience as a woman.

No. 7810

ok one more, kilo kish is another female artist whose music speaks to me

No. 7811

"Novine", it's on Netflix

No. 7812

File: 1550055353430.jpg (34.18 KB, 620x330, theendisnearbitchesholyshit.jp…)

I'll say that I am one of those person's that prefers written erotica, but tastes are so personal that it can be hard to find stuff I like. I write stuff for personal use, haven't found anything I like better. Comics can work better than visuals or word alone but has two potential failure points.

I wonder if we ever shared a class together, because for a group project the women in the group came up with the same hypothetical experiment (framed as an art project).

I do want to touch on the subject of doomsday themes, since it is definitely one that is very popular in male oriented media. The End of the World As We Know It (TEOTWAWKI) is a favored trope in fiction primarily starring men and consumed by men and sustainability and preppers comms are mostly male. The numbers are of course, inflated by men hoarding tacticool armor and shit. While an interesting subject it is definitely a stale one and you quickly get the impression that many of these men welcome doomsday scenarios and think they're gonna make out of it like Mad Max. There are female doomsday preppers too but I think the closest female equivalent are like the female hippies (a lot of crossover in interests/concerns) and the vibe is really different.

Regardless I would like to see the subject handled from a female perspective if only to spice it up

No. 7813

>I write stuff for personal use, haven't found anything I like better.

this is the cringiest shit i've ever fucking heard.

No. 7814

File: 1550066031031.jpg (892.17 KB, 675x1000, madmax.jpg)

My favourite action film ever is Mad Max: Fury Road. I don't think it's a coincidence that it's also has a female editor, female costume designer and a feminst advisor regarding portrayal of sexual abuse in war zones. I like how Charlize Theron looks in this - a real post-apocalyptic action heroine, not eye candy for men.

Why is that cringy? Do you think having sexual fantasies is cringy too - she just writes her down?

No. 7815

If no one wrote or drew their fantasies there would be no erotica or drawn porn. You realize that, right? Or are you one of those anons who think sex and sexual fantasies are all wrong?

No. 7816

NTA but saying you haven't found anything you like better than your own work seems awfully shortsighted to say the least.

No. 7817

But she's only saying that she hasn't found anything that appeals to her specific tastes as well as what she writes herself, anon. That's completely normal if her tastes are even a little niche.

No. 7818

Why? Most pornograohic material will never even come close to my own fantasies, wanna know why? Because they have everything I’d ever want in them and aren’t subject to others tastes

How is it any way weird or shortsighted to prefer ones own sexual fantasies over someone else’s

No. 7819

Fantasies are one thing, work is another, work includes your skill.

You do you anon but I can't get off to my own work because I keep thinking about it critically, it also feels too weird because I'm familiar with the whole creative process of how this was made, which kills absoluely any suspense.

No. 7820

Sounds like a you problem.
Personally, no one draws 5' brown guys getting pegged like I do and this will continue to be the most accurate to what I'm into.

No. 7821

File: 1550074336128.jpg (14.28 KB, 240x320, 137593505136.jpg)

>no one draws 5' brown guys getting pegged like I do and this will continue to be the most accurate to what I'm into.

No. 7822


No. 7823

I'm really picky about word choice, takes me out of a story. I also dislike a lot of things like physical descriptions. I've also had too many instances of enjoying something written by someone else and being hit with something weird or off putting. The ideal would be to hire someone I guess makung something to my taste but I am too cheap.

No. 7824

Are y'all done shitting up the thread with "ur cringe" and "i am the best at this". Make a Porn Debate Club: Fallacy Edition thread and shit on each other there. Nobody c a r e s.

I am not so sure about survival and chosen one narratives being male gaze considering female-pandering YA works also pretty much feature the same premise if the genre is fantasy or scifi. You could probably argue that this happens bc they just try to appropriate plot structure that appeals to males and just swap genders and add a romance arc which isn't really true female gaze. Idk.

I'm interested in this idea of voyeurism vs being watched but not getting to point it out or react to it situation. I relate to this perhaps a little too much due to my proneness to depersonalization but I always related to characters in media that are sexualized to the point where they can't connect to anyone and feel alone. Perhaps it's at the core of why male gaze is extremely offputting for me, it's the same shit we experience outside of films but amplified. Why does the thing I consume for escapism also show me a world where I am still an object? Ideally I'd like to be able to break that dominant gaze and have mine manifest rather than make do with only being the object to be gazed at.

No. 7825

Somebody sure got triggered over around 4 posts.

No. 7826

File: 1550113832348.jpg (124.57 KB, 580x875, MV5BNWJkZTI3ZGUtOWQ3Ni00Y2Y5LT…)


the adaptation of American Psycho was directed by mary harron, director of the fantastic valerie solanas biopic I Shot Andy Warhol. the book is misogynist trash but Harron read and turned it into fantastic satire of male vanity and pathology, which men - even Ellis himself, really - still misunderstand to this day. read this, see that "American Psycho resits its antihero’s allure. Harron, Turner, and Bale rightfully see Bateman as pathetic.":


No. 7827

File: 1550114839775.jpg (659.23 KB, 1080x2220, Screenshot_20190213-211346_Chr…)

Outlander? A "pop culture breakthrough?" Author of this article immediately discredited.

>About half way through the book, the protagonist, Claire, is violently beaten by her lover/husband, Jamie, as punishment for endangering him and his clan. While I could have accepted the scene as a pivotal point in Claire’s character development or point of tension between the main characters, I could not bear the fact that: 1.) Jamie admits to enjoying beating her, 2.) Claire forgives him almost instantly, 3.) Jamie proceeds to rape her the next day, and 4.) after said abuse, Claire tells Jamie she loves him for the first time.

No. 7828

Hmm, fair points on American Psycho. Perhaps I'm conflating how the incels of 4chan idolize him as /theirguy/ with the actual framing in the film. I should watch it again, I've only seen it once.

I finished Lady Bird earlier today and thought it was fantastic. Female director and writer! The story was a coming of age kinda jam but the execution is what really resonated with me. I loved its emotional vulnerability and I found the story quite realistic to my own experiences as a mid class kid in a rich private school with big mouth. The protag sticks out and is grating on people, and is treated a million different ways by all the people around her. I also loved her relationship with her best friend Julie who also reminds me of a lot of quiet girls I've known, relegated to the background even though they're quite good at some things. The issues at home were all very familiar too, either my own or friends' lives. Highly recommended, it deserves all the positive buzz it received when it came out.

No. 7829

File: 1550152245588.jpg (398.37 KB, 2000x1957, 00-holding-making-the-case-for…)

I love this movie so much. The entire aesthetic, the look of the desert, the insane cars, the crazy skull emblems, Furiosa herself, the women warriors and their outfits, it all appeals to me as a woman. One of my favorite things about this movie that is non-visual is it takes the topic of sexual abuse, but it doesn't go the typical male route with shoving in uneeded rape scenes. The whole movie is so over the top, yet we never see Immortan Joe sexually abuse his wives. We know it happens, and that is enough. There's also that amazingly creepy scene of the fat women being milked. Not male gaze-like at all, just full on creepy, showing how fucked up Immortan Joe is. And frankly, that is all we need.

Terminator 2 is another favorite of mine and I love how buff Linda Hamilton got for that movie. It was entirely practical that she would train herself that way, and it wasn't sexualized at all, and she looked fucking amazing to me. Hell, I'd even argue for some women, Predator could be a bit of a female gaze movie, if you love buff men. The one female character, Anna, is also completely non-sexualized and helps them out.

No. 7830

I find men hotter when they're clothed or look like they just did the deed but not naked. Also when they look vulnerable. So hot

No. 7831

I think you're thinking too hard about this, anon. Other than that, this is a good picture.

No. 7832

I agree that women focus more on the personality and character of the man rather than the appearance.

No. 7833

File: 1550177029190.jpg (134.12 KB, 900x506, game-of-thrones-season-5-sophi…)

What do you guys think about Game of Thrones? It's not exactly female-gazey but everyone and their grandma shills it as empowering for women and it is touted for having strong female characters of both the masculine and feminine variety. iirc it has a female writer (among many males) and a female costume designer as well.

Personally, I think the characters on the show are poor caricatures of their book versions. Martin captures the female experience a lot better than most other fantasy writers, and much much better than the show writers. I know book sperging is better left to reddit or one of the designated forums, but I'm curious to hear what casual female show watchers (and book readers) think without a bunch of scrotes jumping in to yell about how this show is the best thing for women/feminism since Rosie the Riveter.

No. 7834

How is a show that can't go without randomly showing 10 naked prostitutes and at least one rape scene per episode (because muh historical accuracy) empowering for women??

No. 7835

No. 7836

the books have some good characterization since we can hear the female characters' thoughts, but still an issue with bringing Western misogyny into a fantasy world that could have completely different social codes. I mean, it's written by a white American guy, so it makes sense the source material is gonna have innate bias that he doesn't specifically mean to include but just can't imagine not existing in the world. just lazy and unimaginative I guess. for Tywin to be all "oh Cersei you're a woman so you could never have any real power" like, it's a completely made up world, why is it so unthinkable that a woman could be treated with respect and hold the same levels of power as a man? There are fucking dragons and zombies. Why is it seen as "unrealistic" to have gender equality? (And don't even get me started on the show writing in homophobia and seeing Loras as "sinful" for being with men when NO ONE has a problem with it in the books, aside from making some insensitive jokes. It's not illegal to be gay in the books, WHY make it in the show? wtf)

But shit like the show changing book-character arcs so Sansa goes to the Boltons and gets raped and abused is just awful to me. The writers of the show use abuse of women(+weird objectification, like Melisandre taking off her jewel necklace and suddenly not be ~smokin hot~) for shock value, and it's so incredibly BORING and distasteful. and framing Sansa's rape from how sad it makes Theon feel about witnessing it, rather than focusing on Sansa's feelings since she's the one being raped.

plus like, we see tits and pussy in almost every episode, but we've only seen one dick. even when Jon Snow was lying DEAD on the table, they had a modesty cloth over his bits, which they would never even IMAGINE doing if it were a dead female. You know she would be full frontal for everyone to oggle even though she's a literal dead person, they would still make it visible for everyone to get horny over

No. 7837

terrible show, terrible for women. porny bullshit. throw it out.

No. 7838

The first page of that thread is infested with men arguing that misogyny doesn't even exist in Game of Thrones, hence why I thought I'd bring the discussion to a female-only space. I explained this in my first comment.

I agree, I think male writers not being able to even imagine a universe where women and men are equal speaks to an utter lack of creativity. But I also think Martin is a history buff who just wanted to do a dramatic retelling of The War of Roses with the added excitement of magic and dragons. imo it would've been just as big of a mistake to gloss over the terrible stuff women went through during that period. Especially since the main theme of the books is "war and feudalism are bad". It's hard to tell a story about dismantling a monarchy without including sexism and male primogeniture. Still, I'm always torn on whether I should recommend the books to my female friends.

As for the show, I'll never understand why some women will go to the grave insisting that the female characters are so relatable and empowering. Especially ones like Sansa and Cersei who go through such drastic personality changes at the flip of a coin to suit the narrative. There's also someone like Asha who goes from being a masculine heterosexual woman who defies gender roles by being captain of her ship and enjoying kinky sex and joining a moot to become queen, to being a creepy predatory lesbian who has no desire to rule and who "cures" her brother's PTSD by emasculating him. iirc Arya and Brienne also have show-exclusive one-liners about how women are stupid and weak. Further proof that most men can only write three types of women: the madonna, the whore, and the woman who's actually a man. I wish there were more female non-YA fantasy writers.

No. 7839

Flatter and worse than the books, but that's been said already. I sorta still enjoy the show, but it's got a lot of problems, not just in the sexism, but the writing. Also, it was male gaze as fuck for many seasons. Remember the scene of Littlefingers whores fingerblasting one another while he monologues for five minutes? They even had articles about that at the time, calling it "sexposition" instead of exposition. Not to mention, even in the first episode, Tyrion is introduced to us… in a whorehouse. He was introduced to us reading a book in the books. Dany's wedding night was clearly non-consensual in the show, while in the book, at least she seemed okay with Drogo at first. Still, their relationship was creepy as hell, no matter how you split it.

After a shitload of criticism for five seasons, they finally toned down some of the rape and nudity, but the damage was done by that point. The series is, like so many other HBO and Showtime shows chock full of so much pointless nudity and sex and rape just to go "See? We're a premium channel. We can do that! It's for adults!" Even True Detective got that shit shoved in. Miraculously, the third season has avoided needless nudity and overly long sex scenes so far.
I agree with a lot of this. I think the books have great worldbuilding, and some good characterization, but at the same time… it's a world of fucking dragons and ice zombies. Why throw in misogyny for the sake of "realism"? The sexualization of Daenarys is pretty skeevy in the books too. That was one of the things the show at least got right - it aged the cast up.

No. 7840

I stopped watching after like the first episode when Chuck raped some girl and the show just flies past that like nothing even happened. And he's supposed to be the "good guy" later on in the series? Give me a fucking break.

No. 7841

you must be retarded or a dyke.(USER HAS BEEN PUT OUT TO PASTURE)

No. 7842

I saw this video a couple of days ago and I immediately thought of this thread even though Im not totally sure it fits here.However it gives me the "female gaze" vibe this thread talks about as many of their other videos.What do you think?

(I have also watched this many times because it's so attractive to me ugh)

No. 7843

For acknowledging the fact that majority of women like men with feminine features? Okay, guess your taste is far superior to mine since you like cavemen.

No. 7844

only jealous ugly men or jealous dykes think attractive men features are feminine.

No. 7845

I find myself agreeing with most stuff here but I prefer men in their 30's-40's

Seeing an older man roll up his sleeves, turn his head in thought, smile openly or even blush in embarrassment makes me think that he's cute.

No. 16967

>I have a set of rules for myself written down on an autistic .txt file
C-can I read it?

No. 18038

Okay, just remembered about this thread, and what the actual fuck is wrong with you anon. Why does the fact that men also have feminine features get you so fucking assblasted, it’s pretty much universally acknowledged that people are drawn to pretty things/features, you realise that attractive men can still be masculine whilst having feminine features, right? Jfc sage for sperging but this is such a dumbass mindset

No. 18232

1. Don’t betray your own gender for approval of any kind, especially from men.

2. You don’t have to be liked by all, some people will dislike you no matter what you do.

3. Don’t make promises you won’t keep. Your word should always mean something.

4. It is okay for things to end.

5. Don’t burn a bridge you can peacefully walk away from.

6. You don’t owe people your time, but you do have to treat them in a way you can feel good about.

7. Apologize honestly when you make a mistake. You have to own up to your faults.

8. It is better to make a choice and go through the consequences than to sit in confused inaction.

9. You don’t have to anxiously explain and justify your whole perspective in one conversation, people will get to know you small bit by small bit.

10. Filler blabber isn’t necessary, choose your words carefully and take your time.

11. Build small habits over time and take strong steps. Stop sprinting and falling as a result.

12. Don't shape your life and self-narrative to cater to others' expectations, no matter how important those people are to you.

No. 18465

Great rules anon, totally agreed with them and number 1 is also something I strongly believe in. Even disregarding betraying my gender, I'm striving to just not seek approval for men in any situation, especially in regards to my looks. Relying on them for validation and self esteem is a death sentence.

No. 18614

File: 1552553394162.jpg (215.12 KB, 971x801, 1524334103692.jpg)

We are in the midst of the age of the female gaze right now. They are the primary market demographic.

I'm surprised people don't realize how close we are to Mills & Boon covers these days.

No. 18616

File: 1552553749825.jpg (53.13 KB, 821x290, 150212_50Shades_Anastasia.jpg.…)

No. 18617

File: 1552554383795.jpg (66.52 KB, 784x489, Image-5.jpg)

No. 18628

File: 1552559845662.jpg (156.32 KB, 650x368, screen-shot-2017-12-20-at-7-52…)

Yeah I feel very pandered to by that top pic

No. 18637

File: 1552560744365.gif (980.35 KB, 400x225, tumblr_inline_n639u3fofP1sgdzn…)

Bloody,sweaty,hyperventilating men in Hannibal is top female gaze material.
Sex scenes are usually cringey but the one's in Hannibal were tasteful/artsy nothing vulgar

shirtless muscular men are kinda boring

No. 18639

>unironically liking these bad cash-grab movies shilled as female-gazy

No. 18640

>shirtless muscular men are kinda boring

This has been expressed by others too, I doubt that other anon has actually read this thread

No. 18641

I don't like those.

No. 18642

it's probably a man lol

No. 18644

I can't contain myself gazing at Ben Swolo

No. 18657

Why compare the shirtless men to clothed headshots of the women? I would never watch that wifebeater movie but even I know both get undressed.
It would be very generous to assume otherwise.

No. 18658

File: 1552567518373.jpg (109.86 KB, 354x500, GazettE.jpg)

yes, I'm sure you are examples of the average moviegoing woman, and not yaoi readers and jrock fans.

No. 18659

It seems those are our only options, ladies. Ben Swolo or j-rockers. I think I'll go lesbian.

No. 18662

>There's no such thing as a general trend or preference

No. 18669

It's so mundane to see a shirtless man doing normal shit like jogging or at the beach.
There's nothing sensual about it

No. 18673

>that deformed thing Rey is looking at is female gaze
More like Female Cross-Eyed

No. 18675

or Female Cataract.

No. 18676

File: 1552571128195.gif (889.44 KB, 500x220, original (1).gif)

No. 18808

There being actors women might find attractive presented in a nude way != female gaze.

Female gaze isn't just putting hot people in a movie. It also isn't just male gaze reversed in a literal way.

Maybe read the fucking thread before you post this dumb shit. Nobody is even saying no woman is being pandered to by those films but it's not what female gaze is.

No. 18861

its no longer just a gaze then is it.

No. 18879

Gaze, in an academic sense, isn't just "what you might wanna fuck".

No. 18967

Right? It's like men don't know what we're into, so they just genderbend what they're into (and make sure to let out their oen latent, or not-so-latent homosexual thoughts) and call it a day.
Then they get mad when we say we don't like that, just like >>18658 did, lmao.

No. 19172

This is such an interesting topic and I didn't see it addressed up thread, but what would be a female gaze worthy endgoal? The male fantasy is to get the girl or be the hero, but what do women want most? To live comfortably in her own sanctuary? To be a part of a close community? I personally don't care for "getting the guy" or attaining power/glory, but do those kind of endings resonate with other women?

No. 19177

>we all know shirtless dudes != female gaze bc those dudes are primarily for men to self insert as fantasies and not actually for women
You're right! The huge international success of Aquaman was because of hordes of men and boys looking to self-insert as Jason Momoa! How could I have been so blind?

No. 19191

That is a great question to bring up. I'm not totally sure but here are some thoughts:

I like looking at commercials for this stuff because they're very specific on purpose, to appeal to their very specific demographic. Travel commercials are the best at this, as are car commercials. For resort hotels trying to get at women, they usually push ideas like the family being emotionally in-tune and tranquility, sort of hinting at inner peace and comfort. For cars, they usually either push the family being pleasant or having a self-reliant, working woman lifestyle.

Perhaps the satisfying ending brings us reconciliation with the role of womanhood? When I think back to media with endings that I particularly liked, it's usually been introspective endings that revolved around self acceptance and becoming the master of one's own condition.

I don't really think the end goal part is that different from men in that way though. It just seems like gender-related self-actualization to me.

No. 19227

that, but unsarcastically.

No. 19253

File: 1552735714034.jpg (45.44 KB, 720x528, 47679399a9b30f01a0969d6f32eb64…)

I live for Adam Driver, shirtless or not lmfao
TLJ was a gift in that department and nobody will tell me otherwise

No. 19317

Adam, pls

No. 19319

File: 1552769978979.jpg (16.21 KB, 700x372, Adam Driver.jpg)

No. 19390

I honestly find his face super attractive (even, if not especially, the ears), but his body really does nothing for me personally.
He's not fat or anything just…W I D E. Didn't expect it.

No. 19606

This dude's body is as weird as his face. I love his ugly face.

No. 58296

No. Not even close.

No. 58297

File: 1571424081023.gif (998.96 KB, 500x354, 2138090.gif)

No. 58505

what are people's thoughts on princess jellyfish? also, probably better discussed elsewhere, but terry pratchett has a few good lines about subverting male expectations for his female characters

No. 59703

Both terms, male gaze and female gaze are moronic. Yes, both men and women like to look at things they find attractive, I truly find the hypocritical prude attitude by secular people to be insufferable.

I just don't get the appeal of yaoi, it seems to me that is made by and aimed to women that can't self insert.

As for the reasons why fujos being hated is due to being obnoxious shipperfags and the fact that supposedly gay fiction isn't appealing for actual gays.

I wish there were more straight vanilla where the guy is good looking, nakeed and shown from different views like the girl.

>The west has a very toxic view on emotions, unfortunately
Wrong, the East has far more sever attitude against expressing emotions and instead encourage self-restraint. The real problem is the dominance of unhealthy prude view about sex that started and spread by Catholics and rooted so deeply that even hypocritical secular feminists adopt it.

I will note I only support 2D and find real one to be disgusting and not to mention have far more issues with human trafficking and so on.

>We are all the product of an entire lifetime under a patriarchal society
>le evil man
>we live in a society

>It’s impossible to say what a female gaze would be

>I don't know what attracts me
Are you asexual?

No. 59725

female gaze is women looking at and objectifying men, stupid.

No. 59735

why do anons keep insisting shit like this? i like twinky or girl ass looking men and literally nothing about pussy is appealing to me

No. 59739

So youlike girls with dicks huh

No. 59751

>lolcow says feminine men are girls with dick
>lolcow says MTFs are 100% men
It's just whatever suits the argument I guess.

No. 59756

ever thought that those are not the same person……

No. 59765

Nice try, no farmer would say the phrase “girls with dicks” kek only scrotes and trannies

No. 59766

stop being a retarded bitch and associating femininity with women specifically you demon

No. 59770

It's called femininity for a reason,idiot

No. 59822

I just don't understand why that anon thinks it makes women lesser for liking feminine men…or being les/bi.
If anything it's BDE to want a frail, effeminate partner since you know you can take care of yourself.

No. 59830

Does anyone play otome games? I really question if they are written by women, or men trying to guess at what women like. There always seems to be those characters that are borderline or straight up abusive. The MC is always weak and helpless too, and pushed around by at least one of the love interests. Shoujo love interests are also pretty abusive and rapey. Maybe I am being biased and this is the majority of what teenage girls/women are brain-washed to like in Japan.

I just think it's weird that young girls are fantasizing about being locked up in cages or being talked down to by someone who claims to love them rather than something more pure-hearted? It really bothers me.

No. 59834

I think it exists, but most forms of female gaze have to be covert because it's less acceptable for us to be openly sexual (which imo at the best of times is a misguided attempt to teach us to protect ourselves) - but also because a lot of women aren't highly sexual to begin with.

I'm very weeby and grew up on that stuff and I think the source material (anime for teenagers) and their fanartists developed its own kind of 'language' where you want attractive male characters to appeal to girls without being explicit about it. I came across an artist called sayuuhiro (tumblr) who draws what I'm talking about (or maybe I'm just gonna describe my tastes,ignore that some of it's BL, sorry). The guys will look inviting, they might have super bedroom eyes, they'll be doing something with their hands, all with this kind of low energy confidence without needing to bombard the female viewer that they're dtf. They might be well groomed with a hint of mess. They don't need to show how badass masculine they are with a huge dong to appeal to me, just that sense of vulnerability you'd only see in a man if you were already intimate with him. Sex it up to your taste, like I like kaneoya's art too.

for the love of god I'd like to find more explicit art like this which isn't gay/involves man ass/is a straight couple, what do I have to search for to find a beautiful 2D couple?

No. 59904

I'd like to believe that japanese women aren't actually retarded, they face so much irl harassment that they can separate reality from shoujo shit. I feel like stuff targeted at older demographic are more "normal" than the usual autism.
>tfw no qt cat eared yandere bf tho

No. 59929

the otomes made by Koei are made by Ruby Party, an in-house development team composed of women https://koei.fandom.com/wiki/Ruby_Party. When Quinrose went bankrupt several of its ghostwriters were revealed as women as well

however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out lol

No. 59962

I feel like yandere is acceptable if they're only hostile towards other people and not their love interest. I like the idea of how lovesick and devoted yandere are, but a lot of the time they just loop back around to being spiteful and hurtful towards the love interest.

Oh yeah, I remember Angelique back in the day and Kiniro no Corda but never played them. They seem quite pure-hearted and tame from a quick glance. Has anyone here played them and can tell me a little more?

>however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out

Amensia, Brothers Conflict, and Diabolik Lovers turned me away from otome. They seemed really popular even with western readers so I thought they might be ok for a first-time reader but they were all trash. I have no doubt those were written by men, especially Diabolik Lovers.

No. 59977

File: 1572376702210.jpg (114.9 KB, 1200x675, Vanilla.jpg)

>Shoujo love interests are also pretty abusive and rapey. Maybe I am being biased and this is the majority of what teenage girls/women are brain-washed to like in Japan
First thing, it isn't as common as it used to be, I noticed shoujo is less trashy than in the past, at least from my observation.

Second thing, this kind of writing isn't exclusive to Japan/Asia, see Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.

>I just think it's weird that young girls are fantasizing about being locked up in cages or being talked down to by someone who claims to love them rather than something more pure-hearted? It really bothers me

There's reason why it's called FANTASY. *Many women also fantasize about rape, it doesn't mean they actually want to be raped! Take people who are into vore etc
I think you confuse the means with the end, what really stand behind this and what is actually the common fantasy is the idea that some hot guy who is also rich and/or smart etc is all over what is rather in average girl/woman. Women/girls don't like the stalking, abuse on itself, what they like is the idea that man would be head over heels for them to the point he can't control himself and so on.

*Before I will be accused by someone that I'm a man for saying that let me just give some reference as proof
>Studies have found rape fantasy is a common sexual fantasy among both men and women

>>however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out

>I have no doubt those were written by men, especially Diabolik Lovers
Nah, men that actually write Shoujo are super vanilla

Another example would be different ending of Kare Kano anime (directed by the master Hideaki Anno) than the original manga.

>for the love of god I'd like to find more explicit art like this which isn't gay/involves man ass/is a straight couple, what do I have to search for to find a beautiful 2D couple?
And even than it will be like finding a needle in a haystack, don't forget most vanilla is still made by and aimed for men.
Another thing you can search for is OTPs from animes which is an easier way to find good vanilla (Eremika have some god tier doujins).

No. 60042

I think we have to set a clear boundary between what is rape and what is simply the man taking the initiative. Because when I've talked to my friends who claim to like "rape" it's not really so. It's simply the man being more eager in a way where they might be more assertive. Like you said, loss of control because they are so attracted to her, but it's never the spiteful, hateful, actions you see in actual rape. I believe this is the majority of "rape" women seem to like and scrotes love to tote this as women liking real rape, but it is really just the man leading.

>it's not real! they don't actually want to be raped!

Yes, obviously they would only want it in a situation where they have some control. But still it says a lot about their low self-worth and mental state to desire it in the first place. In their minds they are only attractive and desired if a man is violating their boundaries and raping them. It isn't healthy. Like how people here call men sick for sexualizing drawings of children? They don't want to have sex with real kids (imo i think loli tends to have some post-pubescent features mixed in as well), but it's still terrible.

If a woman has fantasies about actually being raped she is sick and shouldn't be writing that shit for young impressionable teenagers. The majority of rape you see in shoujo/otome is actual rape, the heroine doesn't want it, you can observe her thought processes and everything. This is the sort of shit that scrotes think most women like (obviously I don't doubt that some do, but the majority of women do not like abuse/rape)

No. 60044


sigh, ye know, reading some of this kinda gets me worried. im in the middle of doing more nsfw in hopes of getting more attention for once in life…and i wanna avoid just being some porn artist that draws big tiddy anime girls all day.

the real issue is a lot of what women are into don't apply to me. like, i enjoy shoulders and shit but mostly care about the backside of a person more really. hands are just meh since i guess when you struggle drawing hands you start to grew sense anxious jealousy over how something you assume is easy to draw isn't.

sachiko never really did anything for me or really any of the so called "female" gaze oriented works listed here. maybe i find doing my own eoritca turns me on more than per-etablished things. but i'm just the exception not the rule.

women in my eyes are not monolith and have their own ideas of what they find "good looking

No. 60051

I'm kind of with you, anon. I appreciate Sac's work as well as more "aesthetic" things…but also just love some man ass. I also draw my own porn, and while some may be what this thread trended towards, some is also just a close up of an asshole and some balls. Classic 2D porn style.

Someone did mention before itt that female attraction is crazy varied though, moreso than with men. And I'd agree. It's harder to pander to women since we're less in agreement about what the hot standard is than men.

No. 60057

With all the degeneracy online these days I forgot vanilla existed as a category
>don't forget most vanilla is still made by and aimed for men
Aaaand that’s why I forgot. Straight (male gaze) vanilla is so stock porny and boring. At least being bi means I can enjoy the woman when they often put fuck all effort into drawing the man. I have your pic related saved btw, it’s hilarious (and gives tomboys like me hope). I get annoyed when solo male art gets tagged as gay because not everyone who wants to look at a man is another gay male or a fujo ffs

I thought most (mobile) otome are shit because they’re just shovelware some cheap dev made for profit, they look so low quality I’d chalk it up to sheer laziness by some out of touch Japanese person who just wants to milk a platform/genre they don’t care about.

I noticed most men have really square glutes instead of ‘bubble butts’ but as long as they’re nice loafs and not sad sacks of cellulite like h3h3 that’ll do for me. Funnily enough I never get anxious about drawing hands because they’re one of my favorite body parts. What people find hard about hands is just something else I put more care into because I enjoy it, so it ends up being fun. Recently I studied back muscles and now I think they’re delicious

No. 60184

i'm not into vanilla be it for women or men. it's like boring as shit. i've always been into transformation, expansion and monsters for awhile now since i was kid even though at first i was kinda scared of it…then kinda got into it. im fucking weird.

though, i'm starting to open to the good old sex related fetishes and foreplay..and bondage lately.

i wanna get better at feet since i'm into it somehow. hands are a second concern now that i'm getting better at them lately. (the funny thing i use to hate feet fetish stuff until i realized i had fixation on barefoot characters..)

alas i'm lazy as fuck and i much rather write porn then draw it really since i'm use to drawing characters by themselves.

tl;dr i'm a massive degenerate…

No. 60377

No one asked what your fetishes are

No. 60542

Matt Groening and his epstein teenage foot massage

No. 60547


just found out about this blog, it talks a lot about the female gaze

No. 60619

I don't think that was common knowledge 8 months ago.

No. 95321

I always liked Josei better than Shoujo since Shoujo tends more to be sugary romance and finding love while Josei is more about the reality of being in a relationship and how you deal with a person and their family and all the positive and negatives that come with it. Josei also tends to deal with abusive shit and calls it abusive moreso than shoujo would. Also women are allowed to be imperfect in Josei manga and anime. I guess it's because of that stuff that Josei isn't as popular as Shoujo.

Princess Jellyfish is probably the most popular example and one of my favorites.

Not Josei (and I don't even know what category it would fit in) but Michiko to Hatchin is probably the closest you get to a full action oriented Anime with a female gaze. It was written by a man but it's directed by Sayo Yamamoto (who directed The Woman Called Fujiko Mine and Yuri on Ice) and she had full creative freedom in the design and what each scene was going to focus on and could do her own changes.

No. 95341

Groening didn't write the Simpsons episodes you numbnut, he just created the concept and sold it. Writing them was a collective effort from male and female writers.

No. 95441

Thanks for the link to the blog, loving the content!

No. 128037

File: 1613409981424.gif (1.02 MB, 360x233, MPAtC06.gif)

Bridgerton is very female gazey

No. 128055

File: 1613418460963.png (210.02 KB, 433x325, 1048793278432043286592.png)

Damn. Wasn't really interested in this show before but will be checking it out now. Thanks nonny.

One instance where I can recall female gaze being brought up was in FKA Twigs' videos. I really like that a lot of her stuff is very sensual and erotic but not crass in the way it would be if it was filtered through a man's perspective.
>"What I discovered from Pendulum was just that it’s really important with an artist like myself, when I’m exploring my sensuality and my sexuality, to make sure that it isn’t filtered through a male gaze. So even as a female director, in the beginning of my career I was working with certain male DPs, and even though they were so talented and so skilled and have way more technical knowledge than I even do now, sometimes the way that they would shoot the female body would be different from how the image would look if I was really was on top making sure my concept was executed. When we shot Pendulum I was in this shibari, which is basically a Japanese style of bondage. And you get hoisted in the air with your own body weight. So, we’d have to do the take and I’d be put down and I’d have to stay basically tied up and then look at the take on a monitor tied up on the floor. It was really funny because we couldn’t do that many takes. But often with the male DP that I would hire, he was incredible, but naturally he would be looking at more conventionally sensual areas of a woman’s body. Whereas I was like, “No, shoot my feet or my ankles.” I would try to find something that’s a bit more unusual or shoot things that I liked on my body that weren’t necessarily the obvious areas."

No. 128058

File: 1613419357581.jpg (50.73 KB, 750x400, 74032748032749234235.jpg)

Portrait of a Lady on Fire, definitely. Director is a lesbian and the cast and crew was almost exclusively women as well. There are two men in the entire film for probably under a minute.

No. 128089

ughhhh, the scene where all three women are in the kitchen together and one is sewing and the other is baking and it’s just so warm and comfortable - that’s literally the absolute dream tbh, that scene stuck with me SO much.

it also made it that much more intense when everything falls apart at the end and suddenly the men were there, interrupting everything and taking up space in the same kitchen the women had been using. such a good film!

No. 128097

File: 1613429890998.gif (1.89 MB, 500x259, 6470326432843245765.gif)

It was so peaceful! I loved that the movie really honed in on that cozy feeling since it's just Marianne, Héloïse and Sophie isolated on their own little homestead in a gorgeous location. Similarly the beginning was amazing where Marianne just sheds her soaked clothes and sits in front of the fire with a pipe. It felt so natural and unaffected, and the glow from the fire on her skin is gorgeous. Funny how it's also quite literally about female gaze, as Marianne has to stare at Héloïse to memorize her features for the painting.

No. 128132

Focusing on the hands, eye contact, intimate movements (like putting hair behind someone's ear), attention to detail, emotional context, absence of women being objectified, and more aesthetic than the male gaze.

No. 128139

I just want to see males being dominated by women without the women being sexualized at all (no porn crap) more female villains against male protagonists

No. 128140

I love her so much.

I feel like there are a ton of female antagonists vs male protagonists but they're unfortunately sexualized or woman scorned. They're often not equal competitors to the male character, they're not treated that way. Cross-gender rivalry is generally lacking in media.

Semi related, I'll have to go back to pay more attention to the visual framing but Fleabag's writing was extremely compelling to me. Female writers are so important.

No. 128142

The only 2 examples I can think of that had what you were describing was one episode of Once Upon a Time where Regina rapes the Huntsman after he let's snow white go and the Fall where Stella Gibson is always the one in control whenever she's having sex with any male character

That said I don't like using the word dominate Cause it brings up weird scrote-tier bdsm, I like seeing women in control over men but I hate it when its "kinky

No. 128156

File: 1613473251946.jpg (47.45 KB, 300x447, 76432046732643256547.jpg)

>one episode of Once Upon a Time where Regina rapes the Huntsman
God that scene was brutal. I know she is sympathetic in some ways but I absolutely hated Regina, so good on the show for making her a genuinely cruel and detestable villain. She definitely wasn't just a soft, incompetent antihero. At least so far as I watched. Gave up after several seasons as it seemed they were trying to stretch it too long.

Maybe a bit OT since I wouldn't say it portrays female gaze, but there are some great female characters who are dominant in Farscape. Aeryn and Zhaan. For villains, Natira and Grayza (who is also a rapist). You may not like Natira because there is a kink aspect to what she does, but it's depicted as something she personally enjoys and also as a means of control.

No. 128157

File: 1613474506300.jpg (49.63 KB, 522x348, 765430286408235432785423.jpg)

I really recommend the graphic novel Monstress. Both the writer and artist are women and I definitely felt that when reading it. Gorgeous presentation aside, the world is matriarchal and the two major groups are both centered around women tapping into magical powers (sorceresses and basically beast hybrids), cats are really cool and important, focus on nature, well-written female characters and friendships, important themes like oppression, identity and societal conflict. It's really raised the bar for me and I did notice what a comfortable read it was since I wasn't stumbling over gross coomer-y depictions of the characters every few panels.

No. 128159

File: 1613475803734.png (261.58 KB, 503x456, 7648320468326432647832.png)

Another one I think is great is Ava's Demon. Also written by a woman. Two female leads, one is a shy girl who's suppressed a lot of pain and trauma and finds her voice as time goes on. She's possessed by basically an alien war queen. Love her. I like that the guys have a softer presentation and tend to have more passive personalities compared to the assertive and powerful women. Generally speaking the panels tend toward tight character expressions and interactions, which I think creates a sense of intimacy and conveys emotion well. It's also very pretty and uses vibrant colors despite still touching on heavier subject matter, which I feel tends to be a more female sensibility (in that we appreciate beauty and don't need gritty, ugly topics necessarily presented in gritty, ugly ways).

No. 128163

I remember one flashback episode where she legit just ordered the mass slaughter of an entire vilage for giving aid to snow white, they still gave her a redemption Arc btw

Is that supposed to be supposed to the the characters you mentioned, I'm not fond of the super badass 90 pound female soldier cliche, I prefer women who use intelligence or cunning to gain victory and if there is a physical Female character who engages in combat then I'd like for someone like Gina Carano to play such a character, rather the woman you posted in your pic

No. 128189

Your post reminded me of something, a series of tumblr posts about a plausible matriarchal society, see I feel like in fiction when we see depictions of societies where women are the leading sex its often just our own current gender dynamics but reversed, however men are still clearly biologically and very clearly physically larger and stronger then women and so Its non sensical for a society like that to exist and have our western specific gender dynamics


>I always find it kind of weird that matriarchal cultures in fiction are always “women fight and hunt, men stay home and care for the babies” because world-building-wise, it makes no sense

>think about it. like, assuming that gender even works the same in this fantasy culture as it does in ours, with gender conflated with sex (because let’s be real, all of these stories assume that), men wouldn’t be the ones to make the babies, so why would they be the ones to care for the babies? why is fighting and hunting necessary for leadership?
>writing a matriarchy this way is just lazy, because you’re just taking the patriarchy and just swapping the people in it, rather than actually swapping the culture. especially when there are so many other cool things you could explore. like, what if it’s not a swap of roles but of what society deems important?

>maybe a matriarchy would have hunting and fighting be part of the man’s job, but undervalued. like taking the trash out or cleaning toilets: necessary, but gross, and not noble or interesting. maybe farming is now the most important thing, and is given a lot of spiritual and cultural weight.

>how would law work? what crimes would exist, and what things would be considered too trivial to make illegal? who gets what property? why?

>how would religion work? how would you mark time or the passage into adulthood? what would marriage look like? if bloodlines are through the mother, bastardy wouldn’t even be a concept - how does that work?
>what qualities would be most important in a person? how would you define strength or leadership? what knowledge would be the most coveted and protected? what acts or roles are considered useless or degrading?
>like, you can’t just take our current society and say you’re turning it on its head when you’re just regurgitating it wholesale. you have to really think about why things are the way they are and change that.


>I think what really bothers me about the whole “men take care of the children and tend house because they’re not in charge” thing is that it reinforces the idea that traditionally feminine work SHOULD be undervalued. That there’s no way anyone could see raising children and think, “wow, what a valuable contribution to society”. Even though families are what societies are MADE of, and if you ignore the welfare of your children the society falls apart in a generation or two.

>Imagine if women were seen as the ideal political leaders BECAUSE they’re the ones best suited for raising young children. What if it was assumed that government positions were sort of scaled-up households, and that only a leader who saw their subjects as their children could be fair and compassionate enough to rule effectively? What is a village, or a country, but an extended family?

>On the one hand, the ability to use physical force effectively is super important for a low-tech society, and there’s always the threat of hostile military takeover, either from outsiders or via internal revolt. On the other hand, a society where all the men want to rebel is probably not a society that’s being run at all effectively, and there are other ways of maintaining control (ie religion, cultural traditions, propaganda, etc). Women could be the more educated group–in some ways that’s even intuitive, since a non-magical preindustrial society is one with a high infant mortality rate, which means it has to have a high birth rate to compensate, which means women will be pregnant a lot. If they have trouble consistently working physically demanding trades, why not assign them to jobs that require more mental exertion? Why not a society where all the lawyers are female, all the doctors are female, all the historians and most respected poets are female? If you keep that up for long enough, eventually that gets seen as an inherent sex difference, and men don’t exert physical force because holy shit they’d have no idea what they were doing once they gained power.

>It doesn’t have to be these specific differences, of course. But I think that’s the thought process that most of the best worldbuilding comes from–why are things this way? How have they stayed this way? Just saying “what if women could tell MEN what to do!” is so boring compared to asking why we value the things we value. Besides, fictional societies that are created without asking why things are the way they are are not going to stand up under close scrutiny, whether they play into or subvert our expectations.

>This is such an excellent addition to my post, @apprenticebard, I am rubbing my hands together with glee.

>Also, how are the relationships structured? Our western society tends to treat one man+one woman marriage as the default, but, that isn’t the case everywhere. It tends to be enforced in all the areas that Christianity colonized, but, in a matriarchy would that be the way things are? How about one of these two scenarios: 1. Extended families with a matriarch in charge as the last word in judgements and what projects get done and how. The line is passed down through the daughters, and men often leave their own families to join their mate/mates. Women are the ones deciding which fields are planted or fallow, and which kids get trained in what professions. Or/and: 2. The excess daughters or all daughters of the houses go off to travel and decide what trades they want to pursue. They make friends along the way and decide to form a household with 2 to four other women. Maybe they pick up a guy or two, but, fathers for babies aren’t hard to get for city or merchant households.

>System one sounds more rural to me, and system two sounds more like what might happen in a city or with a lot of trade caravans or ships moving people around.

>Childcare in either system is built in with the assumption that no woman is off by herself. (Maybe she is off by herself for periods of time but leaves the kids with family) Maybe the women time pregnancy so that they can be milk mothers to each other’s kids. Maybe they decide to pick one guy to be the father of several of their kids so their kids will be half sibs, or because they like him and keep him around, or because he is valuable in some way(a skill he can teach, maybe, or he’s a storyteller or musician). Maybe the men are traded between families for alliances or to share skills or teach languages.

Historically there have been societies that functioned like this, many Celtic tribes and the Nanman of modern north Vietnam for e.g, Men served mainly as warriors but mostly were laborers and women did all the intellectual work and state craft, they were the doctors, historians, councilers, judges, heads of religion, the artisans e.t.c and in nanman society a woman would be the one decide whether or not a man could even be a man, cause in those cultures body tattoos were the symbol of reaching adulthood and only women were allowed to learn the process and be allowed to do it, so if those women found a young man to be disrespectful they would simply just not too tattoo him which would mark him as an immmature manchild

No. 128198

I do question if these hypothetical matriarchies dealt with war? might sound weird but if I had a guess perhaps strong diplomatic ties may lessen the possibility of it occurring.

No. 128199

War will likely be a reality, the Namnam men fought against the Chinese with women priestess who would bless them in battle, Celtic women would stay behind their men and cheer for them to fight on, caring for the sick injured and chastising any man fleeing

But with regards diplomacy, in Celtic socities the druids would be the ones to make negations and most of the times attempt to make peace, but these people were often highly superstitious, So something like the position of the stars would be a factor or Wether or not two tribes would go to war against each other

No. 128201

you've ever notice misogynistic cultures tended to be centered in countries rooted heavily deeply in the conqueror nations that treated people as pawns in someone's game, often treating women as property.

No. 128222

File: 1613503141540.png (179.65 KB, 235x355, 803246732404758764983645235.pn…)

>they still gave her a redemption Arc btw
Damn, that's disappointing. For one I think she's way beyond redemption and past that, I would've appreciated them just letting a female character be evil. I feel like they might've been worried to let that stand because it could've been seen as less nuanced or taken as victim blaming. Like because Regina had a hard life "you just had to punish the strong woman." I'm not sure which approach is better. There are definitely a lot of male characters that do equally bad or worse things and get redeemed, but I'm not fond of it regardless of the character's sex.

>I'm not fond of the super badass 90 pound female soldier cliche

I love Claudia Black so I'm probably biased. If you know the game Dragon Age she's Morrigan's voice, she's done a ton of general acting and voice work for other games/shows and tends to play powerful women. I would love more muscular women in media as well, but very strong women are in short supply, even more so strong women who are also accomplished actresses. Claudia is slim but not a waif, see picrel and dem abs. To make a long story short her character is not human and comes from a warrior culture so I liked that they turned the "cold, emotionally unavailable male love interest" stereotype on its head by making her the one to fight against that sort of patriarchal programming, plus she does deal with some decidedly female-centric problems. You would probably like Zhaan though, as she's basically a warrior monk who uses her intelligence often and serves as the glue holding the whole team together. She also happens to be a badass and deals with a lot of repressed rage. In a lot of ways Farscape plays into the typical cheesy sci-fi tropes and you'll see sexism, but it's often called out by the female characters themselves. It was also unafraid to do something weird, with a lot of unique story arcs and the characters all struggling with personal growth. Basically "ship full of assholes comes together as a family." Like a quirkier, less noble but more relatable Star Trek.

No. 128227

But plenty of conquering cultures are matriarchal. Shaka Zulu has a reputation for starting an empire and wars across southern Africa. But his mother, aunt, and sister were the ones who governed when he went on campaigns. Some historians say he learnt military tactics from his mother.

The Dahomey were famous female warriors compared to the Amazons. While they did some great things, like training the Haitian revolutionist Dessalines who went on to fight for the abolition of slavery in Haiti. They were also major contributors to the slave trade. To say that only misogynistic cultures are rooted in conquering ignores that most cultures, patriarchal or matriarchal, are based on the gaining resources from others and protecting them.

No. 128287

The Dahomey have been something that have been fetishized and some what exaggerated over the years, they were not soldiers rather more of a royal guard, due to the idea that since women couldn't become King, they'd be more trustworthy. There exsistance really come to be in the 19th century as they were armed with guns and sent to conquer other west African foreign cities which the other female guards tended not to be. But this was mainly due to the advantage Having guns, also it wasn't soley made up of women eunnchs were spiritually thought to be the Same of women

Some estimates go that more 3/5this of the Dahomey Troops that subjugated oher west Africans were Euunchs

I get what you're saying, Matriarchal societies would still engage in conquest, there would be a lot of bullshit in that society,
But it would be better for women overall and I do think we might equality later on

No. 128319

Redemption arcs are difficult to write but no matter how good the writing is certain character types are absolutely irredeemable

I found Regina's character in the earlier seasons to be a good character, she was a tyrnial ruler who had at this deep irrational hatred to Snow white, at the same time howeved in our world she had decolped love for her son Henry, so it was engaging to see what win out her love for henry or hared for snow white, however they dropped and turned her into a good guy for absolutely no reason

Its sorta like making Bardock(gokus dad) into super sayian, sure fans found him popular but always giving the fans what they want can ruin the whole story

No. 128373

I think King Princess videos are very female gazy, but in a very lesbian way.

No. 128547

you're right anon. where'd her fame come from??

No. 128612

from wikipedia:
>On her father's side, her great-great-grandparents include Isidor Straus, a U.S. Congressman and co-owner of Macy's
she claims she isn't a 'heiress' but her family obviously has a ton of inherited wealth and her dad is also rich and well-connected within the industry, so

No. 128647

Hot heiress gf, nice.

No. 131155

File: 1615151547930.jpg (131.57 KB, 739x739, tumblr_47b98b93e635ac9140f3e8f…)

Farmers, I need your help, do you know any self help book or media in general who are really motivating ? I'm looking for something by a women for women. I'm really in need for some unironic girl boss energy in my life.
It would be especially useful if it adresses self sabotaging and imposter syndrome. I'm also looking for some biography of very badass women. Do you guys have any recommendations ?

No. 131200

I haven't read it personally, but I've heard Playing Big by Tara Mohr is a good book on overcoming imposter syndrome for women. For biographies:
- Empress Dowager Cixi by Jung Chang
- The Secret History of the Mongol Queens by Jack Weatherford (by a man, but he uncovered a lot of important and formerly unknown history about female Mongol rulers and made it available to the west)
- Ruth Bader Ginsburg: A Life by Jane Sherron De Hart
- Stories of the Sahara by Sanmao
- Charlotte Brontë: A Fiery Heart by Claire Harman
I also think the site Rejected Princesses is a great place to identify prominent historical women so you can do further reading.

No. 131208

thank you so much anon! I'm going to check all of this !

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