/2X/ - (XX)

Does anyone have recommendations of radfem-critical literature from a lesbian perspective? I know these things aren't actually new and have gone on since the 70s at most, so I'd really like to know more.

But they are cockbreaths. Stop being nice to bdsm havers.(schizo blackpiller)

>>24569
What did you not understand when this thread was made because lesbians did not feel comfortable with radfems of your type?

>>24569
This thread is not for spergy bihets like you. Please go obsess over men and dick somewhere else while hating on women. This is for lesbians, normal lesbians who are feminists.

My main issue with the feminist spaces I’ve been is the heavy focus on men. I want spaces that are more focused on how to help women instead of all the talk about romantic relationships and how to be in one with a man while being a feminist or whatever they talk about. At a certain point it all sounds like one big long conversation. Then you have the feminist spaces that don’t focus on men and focus on women but it’s in the most hateful way. It’s always about finding new women to shame for this or that (aka most radfem spaces). I get that rage is what keeps us addicted to the interest but it’s not healthy

>Tifs

It’s hard for me to sympathize with them because I feel they look down on other women as a whole.

>>24572
>It’s hard for me to sympathize with them because I feel they look down on other women as a whole.
One of the reasons I don't label myself as a radfem is that I just can't get on board with handling TIFs with kiddie gloves. "but anon, they're not violent rape apes like TIMs!" big fucking whoop, are you gonna give them a medal for that? They cause just as much damage by indoctrinating other vulnerable women and being extremely vile and misogynistic to "cis" women. We're plebs to them, you can tell that by their sneering condescension. The bitter truth is that you can't help everybody, and these women have made their beds.

>>24572
>>24575
Lesbian TIFs don't act like this. The butch ones who transition are usually quiet about it and want to live a "straight" life, and the identity-only lesbian TIFs (that are actually lesbian, not just calling themselves that) stay in their lane. It's always the heckin queer dangerhairs with boyfriends that are outwardly misogynistic, but anyway, what do TIFs have to do with this thread? OP mentions lesbian detransitioners. There are other threads for trans sperging, let's try to stay on topic.
>>24568
Recently I've been reading a lot by women who call themselves lesbians, but the problem is that 50 years ago, any celibate straight woman could call herself lesbian and did just that. So 99% of lesbian theory is polilez, and doesn't come from a place of homosexual attraction at all, which is to say, there is rarely criticism of the heteropatriarchy or real lesbian perspective. I'm saying this because I literally have yet to read one lesbian feminist book that doesn't suggest female homosexuality is just a political choice, except Calhoun's excerpt which I mentioned in the other thread. Female homosexuality being recognized as a sexual orientation pertaining to exclusive attraction to other women is actually a relatively new thing. The only way I've been able to tell that certain women of old were really lesbians was because of their dirty comics about wanting to be a part of some butch on butch action, or participate in lesbian S/M, and has nothing to do with politics at all. Contemporary lesbian authors are either libfem bisexuals with transbian boyfriends or writing fantasy novels and staying far away from theory. At least this has been my experience, and if anyone has books to recommend that aren't polilez, please share them! But damn, this makes me realize how badly we need lesbian theorists and philosophers to write some books.

>>24572
>My main issue with the feminist spaces I’ve been is the heavy focus on men. I want spaces that are more focused on how to help women instead of all the talk about romantic relationships and how to be in one with a man while being a feminist or whatever they talk about.
Yeah. A lot of OSA feminists want to renegotiate the social contract between men/women so the terms of the contract are slightly more favorable toward women, while most lesbians want to destroy the contract entirely. I honestly think that in the long run OSA women would be happier with the contract abolished. I don't think males respond to negotiation, or being asked nicely, or being educated. They're two-faced and opportunistic and instinctively view women as mommy bangmaid sex dolls, you just end up with sleazy male feminists who say all the right things in public while stealing his gf's panties and refusing to do the dishes in private.
>>24577
I'm having the same problem with finding lesbian books. Female homosexuality is just so rare. And on top of that I imagine that with 2nd wave lesbians especially, the actual female homosexuals who DID exist were driven away by the negative attitudes toward sex and sex-seeking behavior. I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say but by sex-seeking behavior I mean like, if I'm going on a date with a woman I want to look hot and I want her to think I'm hot and I want to find her hot too. Not necessarily fitting the strict feminine beauty standards but I want to be fit, well-dressed, I buy hair product so it looks decent, I buy perfume or cologne so I smell nice. I'm only attracted to specific types of women as well, like I prefer women who don't shave but honestly it's not because I'm an Enlightened Feminist it's mainly because I think natural body hair is sexy kek. I think many 2nd wavers would see that as self-objectification or sexually objectifying my date or male-gazey in some way and kick me out of the club.

I recently picked up Female Masculinity by Halberstam and it's not strictly feminist but I think it's worth a read for the female homosexuality content. The author is currently a TIF but wasn't at the time the book was written, and the book itself is (so far) not too queer and draws a distinction between sex and gender roles (ie no pandering to "MTF butches" or whatever, recognizes TIFs as hypermasc females instead of literal men). It has good information on historical versions of butch lesbians and their sex lives with other women.

>>24577
>Lesbian TIFs don't act like this. The butch ones who transition are usually quiet about it and want to live a "straight" life
This is what I wanted to do when I wished I could transition. I completely understand why actual feminist women don't like TIFs (one reason I couldn't be a radfem is because I similarly don't want to coddle conservative and trad women as poor victims who don't know what they're doing), but I don't understand how some can be aware of Blanchard's studied difference between HSTS and AGP being different kinds of TIMs with different motives and levels of harm (gay man HSTS are still misogynistic and male privileged but not trying to rape us), but not apply that to how TIFs have different reasons to transition based on sexuality. It's a spit in the face to detransitioners too.

>>24577
They were discussing tifs in the previous thread. It’s not sperging but a response to the conversation that lead to this thread. I’ve had this experience with all of them because I’m at a very liberal college town.

>>24580
Samefag. Don’t tell me to stay on topic when you clearly don’t know what’s going on.

>>24581
Like I said, the breed of condescending TIF you mentioned consists of straight/bi women, which really has nothing to do with lesbians or even lesbian TIFs. The TIF discussion in the other thread was specifically concerning lesbians who transition because of heterosexual maltreatment and expectations. So yes, you are off topic. Cry about it.
>>24579
>but not apply that to how TIFs have different reasons to transition based on sexuality.
They ignore this fact because it's inconvenient to acknowledge it. OSA feminists don't want to face lesbian TIFs because it requires them to confront the fact that a lot of us were or are trans-identified, if not transitioned, because of the heteropatriarchy. What lesbian on what planet would EVER think of transitioning and trying to become a man if only our attraction was truly accepted and normalized? But radfems only care about us when they can use us as mouthpieces, and so they don't even think about their part in oppressing us and contributing to societal pressure to "be a man". It's so much easier to pretend that our one and only reason to transition is because we think we're better than them, like het TIFs.

>>24572
>My main issue with the feminist spaces I’ve been is the heavy focus on men.
Yeah, if I'm honest, I never felt like a good feminist because I just don't care about men much at all. Men are a non-factor in my life–I don't even have male friends, never have. So there's all this handwringing over men and it feels so disconnected from my life and priorities. I want to build healthier connections with women, to work on creating a world where women are happy and healthy, but I don't know how to do that when it feels like practically every woman I know centers men in her life. But I will say I do have sympathy for TIFs writ large, especially lesbians, but it's hard to be close to them because they feel very disconnected from reality. I feel like lesbian TIFs behave very differently from OSA TIFs. I remember one telling me she was going to become a man because so many women had told her that she "would be perfect if she wasn't a woman," and it clearly destroyed her self esteem. It just makes me sad.
>>24568
Like others have mentioned, a lot of the literature is written by political lesbians. Or, even if they are lesbians, they're very theory-poisoned academics who twist themselves into ideological pretzels to be "trans inclusive" and so it weakens their arguments against radical feminism. Still on the hunt for something comprehensive, so if I find anything, I'll post it here.

>>24587
>Like others have mentioned, a lot of the literature is written by political lesbians. Or, even if they are lesbians, they're very theory-poisoned academics who twist themselves into ideological pretzels to be "trans inclusive" and so it weakens their arguments against radical feminism. Still on the hunt for something comprehensive, so if I find anything, I'll post it here.

Honestly, I'd be willing to check those out too as long as their arguments aren't solely "radfems are bad because they're mean to TIMs".

>>24586

You can’t tell someone’s sexuality by what breed of tif they are. Are you a detrans or something?

>>24597
That's definitely much easier. The entire lesbian feminist movement was basically a reaction to many second wave thought leaders' reluctance to treat lesbians as a serious faction within their ranks, so a lot of famous lesbian feminist writings were addressing this central issue. The whole "lavender menace" thing was originally a Betty Friedan quote putting down lesbians who were involved in feminist coalition building, so that sparked a broader movement. Pretty interesting, so it's unfortunate that so many of them weren't actually lesbians, kek. Some examples that include direct criticisms of the broader radical feminist movement due to their mistreatment of lesbians include The Woman-Identified Woman by Radicalesbians (https://repository.duke.edu/dc/wlmpc/wlmms01011), Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence by Adrienne Rich (https://posgrado.unam.mx/musica/lecturas/Maus/viernes/AdrienneRichCompulsoryHeterosexuality.pdf), and a lot of Audre Lorde's writings (she consistently criticized second wave for not considering the struggles of black and lesbian women).

>>24599
I was just reading Radicalesbians' part in For Lesbians Only: A Separatist Anthology. I like the book for the most part, but the recurring polilez tidbits where it reminds you that ~real feminists~ are always lead to a "path of lesbianism" is hard to excuse sometimes kek. Though it did make me consider a reverse idea, that homosexual women are the only potential true feminists because of our innate separation to men, malehood, and male approval and our centering of women. A rectangle is a square but squares are not rectangles, kind of deal.

Slightly OT, but how many of you lead lesbian-focused or lesbian-separatist lives? And what do you all think of womyn's lands? I've found I'm at my most honest and open when I'm around other lesbians, and now I endeavor to keep it that way. I also plan to visit an off-the-grid separatist land in my state sometime later in the summer here, and I'm very excited to meet some older landykes.

What are your thoughts on the nature vs nurture debate in terms of sexuality? Is being a lesbian (or any sexual orientation) mostly due to genetic factors or is it something that evolves from the very first moment of birth and moulds itself during childhood and adolescence? Maybe both? When I say nurture I'm not talking about the polilez appropriation of leasbianism but about an enviromental process that is subconscious, slow and irreversible yet not predisposed by any specif genes. Do you think this debate is relevant to lesbian feminism?

>>24664
Yeah, it's really hard to swallow the polilez talking points even though I think it's obviously true that it's much easier for lesbians to prioritize women and de-center men. I don't think lesbians are the only "true" feminists, but I've never had to negotiate any conflicts of interest because I am indifferent to men. They're background noise to me. I find a lot of OSA women who decenter men are doing so from a place of anger and indignation because they feel betrayed, but would change their tune if men treated them better. I'm not saying that's wrong of them, but that's not how I am. It wouldn't matter how kind and generous men are, I just cannot care about them. As for the separatism thing, I don't think there are enough lesbians for it to be really viable, so I've never even bothered trying. But I have always only interacted with women when given the choice. I'm not really into the traditional womyn's land setup (feels too commune-ish to me), but I'd love to live in a women's only gated community or something. I wish there were more female-only housing options, like there are in South Korea.

>Slightly OT, but how many of you lead lesbian-focused or lesbian-separatist lives?
Love the idea of it. I think I prefer general female separatism because lesbian separatism draws political lesbians and I honestly prefer straight women to that. If I could live on an island populated entirely by homosexual women I'd give up everything for that, but in reality I think lesbian separatism will always be a bit disappointing because it lesbian spaces attract polilez women at the same rate they attract AGPs.
>And what do you all think of womyn's lands?
I love the idea in theory but honestly it gives me a bad vibe. I know an older lesbian who has her own land and lives off the grid and I hate to say it because she's so interesting but she's also pretty nuts and abrasive. I think it takes a certain personality type to say "fuck the world" and go build your own land, and that personality type isn't always great with cooperation. Also communal living seems to primarily attract people who are terrible at communal living.

If they were more common in my country I think I'd love to try visiting because I'm definitely open to having my mind changed, but all the active ones I've heard of are in the states.

>>24667
I personally think it's nature. I myself have been a gay misandrist outcast since I was 10 (as well as having a random fixation on drawing naked women at that same age) and I doubt that gave my sexuality enough time to be moulded by other factors. I don't want to pretend that there's no nuance when it comes to sexuality, but I really think the inclusion of nurture comes from our extremely misogynistic, hetero-oriented society. Not to blog but I had my first girlfriend when I was very young, and unquestioningly called myself lesbian but it was only as I continued to grow up and be exposed to more of the world's straight propaganda that I started calling my sexuality into question and second guessing myself. "Just wait until you find the right man", "I won't be surprised if you get a boyfriend next year", and generally treating being gay as a phase can really make you think that you WERE "turned gay" because you had negative experiences with males in your life, or that you can't know for certain because you never tried dick. I always contrast this mentality of nature and nurture irt lesbianism to that of gay guys, who seemingly never questioned themselves from a nurture perspective at all. Nurture, imo, is entirely a socialization thing, because the category we belong to as women exists in its proximity to men, which makes us question ourselves more and think we'd been "taught" to deviate from our role, if that makes any sense.
Either way, I don't think it really matters much to lesbian feminism. I don't care how you grew into being a lesbian, if you're an exclusively same sex attracted female, then you're in my corner and I care for you. And even if we did know what "caused" it, what would we do with that? Try to turn more women gay? Probably not. Reposted because I responded to the wrong anon, gomen.

>>24673
I relate to this so hard. But I’m also a sort of paranoid and anxious person and the paranoia along with schizophrenia in my family doesn’t help. I remember my first crush was a girl in prek and I vividly remember her name and thinking she was so beautiful which made me want to give my marker to her. I also would obsessively draw female stick figures with boobs. This was all before the internet. To be honest the internet and how politicized being lesbian is created anxiety around my sexuality. Fast forward I discover lolcow where certain commenters love to push the idea that if a man abused you, you’re an angry bisexual who’s delusional about being lesbian but in a way that’s somehow not homophobia?? My mother was still my primary abuser but i digress. I push back on that because years of experience on the internet has taught me how easy it is to regress to the beliefs we were taught by the power structure we live under. Like
> Heterosexuality is natural
> Women’s sexuality is more fluid except when it comes to being attracted to men
> Bisexual men don’t exist, only gay and straight men
I could easily live without men. I honestly never felt a way about them until I started scrolling on lolcow. They’re not really present in my life.

These views are all from the eyes of straight men.

>>24667
From a scientific perspective there's little empirical evidence to suggest that sexuality can be "taught".
>>24664
I think >>24671 makes a very good point with regard to womyn's lands. You truly need a certain mindset and fortitude to be able to fully divest yourself in the manner of living-off-the-land self-subsistence. Young women these days, especially WOC, have less disposable income than the women of the mid-to-late 20th century, not to mention our increased reliance on technology.
and a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square. Soz, the geometry mistake was killing me kek

>>24803
>the geometry mistake
Actually killing myself. That's what I meant, I'm retarded. Thanks for correcting me.
>You truly need a certain mindset and fortitude to be able to fully divest yourself in the manner of living-off-the-land self-subsistence.
True. It's definitely not for everyone. I saw some women on Tumblr mention an urban commune with a shared garden, and I think that's where the future of lesbian separatism lies. A lot of land owners are soon not going to be able to work on their lands because of their old age, and young lesbians are failing to step up and take over for the reasons you mentioned. Female (or lesbian) only apartment complexes would be much more compatible with our contemporary digital lifestyles. It also suits the lesbians who don't want to be removed from society completely or prefer city jobs.