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well to address the OP pic: Rey. The Rise of Skywalker was fucking AWFUL but these people saying that her kissing Ben/Kylo was a “disservice to her character” / her ending up with her “abuser” are such unbearable takes I’ve been seeing circulate around the usually hellish platforms
The fact that the actor for Finn said that crass comment about “laying pipe” just really set me off. fucking reduce her to waifubait much. like god damn romance was the LEAST of TRoS’ problems considering it still managed to be a plot point advancing the overarching narrative, weak as the narrative was. can a female character have a romance or whatever without it being a coded power dynamic for violence or exploitation, even in a space fantasy with completely different societal rules and expectations? why is it assumed she’s the weaker/victimized party without agency here?
sorry to sperg I’m feeling weirdly aggressive about it all. Like… no respect for storytelling. just trying to appeal universally and watering it down from an already-liquified state. Rey got developed in the second movie and drained of any hint of depth in the third.
that's a good point. good female characters get ruined by that shit all the time. and yeah I heard about the khaleesi wedding rape scene, when she was like, 13? I'll probably skip that when I get to it lol.>>788
can you fill me in on what he said? I'm too lazy to google
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This anime had a really strong effect on me when I watched it as a teenager and I would say it made me a feminist after watching.
Great thread, I used to be pretty invested in this topic while in uni. I love reading works that are picking apart bad representations, especially when characters are paraded as stronk feminist figures.
A cute example is this old discursive reading of Elsa/Frozen:https://medium.com/@directordanic/the-problem-with-false-feminism-7c0bbc7252ef
My all time favourite fictional women would have to be Katsuragi Misato and Akagi Ritsuko (Neon Genesis Evangelion). Miyazaki films are also worth mentioning for their young female leads that are portrayed as smart, curious and never obsessed with romance. Kurosawa also comes to mind (The Hidden Fortress).
My least favourite in terms of representation are Lynch movies. Most all
of his women make me downright sad, as they are always in some way abused, fucked up and have little to no agency. I also hated Tarantino's latest movie.
Sorry for being all over the place, my horrible english is stopping me from partaking in a serious debate ;;
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I know it's just a kids show but I really liked Shera and the Princesses of Power. I just thought that the friend to enemies dynamic between Catra and Adora is very rare between females in media? I also love that the girls actually fight and discuss war and strategy and tech and get down and dirty and none of the men are super plot important…I wish I could have grown up as a little girl with a show like this.
>>770>favorite female characters in fiction
ASOIAF is a shitty example but ever since I read the series when I was 13 I felt drawn to Cersei and 90% of the online places discussing the books treat her like shit and see her walk of shame in DwD as something funny or meant to be celebrated.
I don't know how feminist this is, but I was always drawn to her relationship with her children and how (from my point of view) she cares about them but most people online seem to think she only loves them because they're hers (I mean… isn't that the point of motherhood and fatherhood? would you love and care for someone else's children as you care for your own?). She's one of my favorite fictional characters and I love how, even though GRRM is far from a great writer, he gives her some humanity to which I can relate, like her trying to be like her father but being doomed to fail in most of her endeavors due to her status as a woman, and how seeing her Jaime be treated better than her caused her resentment towards men as she grew older. Its bad for her entire character to revolve around men but its interesting how it goes beyond sexual relationships and digs deeper into how not being a man messed up a large part of her sense of self.
I guess I also found it relatable? >how we wish women would be portrayed
Like human beings but written by women. I read an essay by Virginia Woolf on how women have been portrayed for centuries by men as whatever they wanted us to be, but women only started a couple of centuries ago to write about ourselves the way we wanted to. Most media is still dominated by men which means female characters are still predominantly linked to male ideas on what females are. I'd rather have a hundred shitty movies written by women than another "good" movie made by a man who cannot relate to the female self.
Cersei is one of my favorite villain takes. Her entire character is a display of how sexism can wreck a person. She wants nothing more than to reach the heights of her father and be a serious player, given all the opportunities her brother has, but because she's a woman she's a broodmare. Her shitty husband killed the man she thought would be an okay husband.
Cersei's had a fucked up mindset from childhood due to the difference in treatment between her and her male twin (and her motivation behind the incest iirc is basically controlling Jaime and making him a part of her, a male puppet) and it only gets worse over time. She ends up a little pitiable as her alcoholism fucks up her decision making skills and she gets dumber over time.
Somewhat related, I like how Brienne is something of a foil to Cersei. Her father allows her to be more masculine, to have the power to personally defend herself via warfare and avoid being sold as a baby factory. Brienne still has to deal with terrible and awful things, and gets even more shit for trying to hit the masculine ideal. It's a lose-lose situation being a woman in Westeros.
I'm currently on a Liane Moriarty kick, but so far nothing has really been as good as Big Little Lies, her best-known work which I read after watching the television series. I will say that it's a breath of fresh air to read books that usually have at least one older female protagonist. They also center on female friendships which I find really refreshing; even when the women are instinctively judgmental toward each other because they're middle-aged suburbanites, they tend to become friends through mutual hardships, so they're pretty good reads. I love reading about older women in fiction in general. I think this first started after I read Howl's Moving Castle as a kid, which really interested me and opened my eyes to how you almost never see old women in fiction, especially childless women.
Big Little Lies is probably Moriarty's best work and the one I recommend the most, and I used to really love the HBO series before I read it, but afterward the changes they made really annoyed me. I hate that they changed it so that Madeline's marriage was unhappy and that she had an affair because apparently she was "too perfect" compared to Jane and Celeste?
She was a more maternal figure in the book compared to the series where they take her characteristics of being gossipy and kind of brash to just being outright childish sometimes. It's really confusing. I will forever love the last scene, but I hate Season 2 for what it did to the characters. The female friendships that were the core of the series don't even matter anymore, and Bonnie pushed Celeste's abusive husband because she was reminded of her dad in the books, but in Season 2 of the television series, it's actually her mom who abused her. Not to mention the courtroom scene is so banal.>>834>>839
I love Cersei. She really was my favorite character in ASOIAF for exploring the consequences of sexism, which was probably my favorite part of the series honestly. She's like a deconstruction of the ideal of what a woman is expected to be in that she cares about her children more than anything, she is obsessed with beauty and youth because of the prophecy, etc. I feel like one of the strong points of the series was that every woman had a unique relationship with the patriarchal system they lived under, and you could really see how it affected them.
samefag, forgot to add - i love how hiromu arakawa wrote all of her female characters in the FMA series. idk, just, you can tell it was written by a woman.
also! the webcomic octopus pie. it's one of the only instances where i could truly relate to multiple women in a single piece of media. it's really neat and def check it out, starts out kinda meh but develops into one of the most in-depth, realistic (but still really witty) coming of age stories.
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Amy Dunne's cool girl monologue is absolutely iconic.
Also I couldn't tell you're ESL at all from that post, you seem to use more advanced vocab very naturally. Even if I could tell you shouldn't worry about it, it's not a big deal if you make mistakes sometimes.
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Anyone else love the relationship betweeen Qyburn and Cersei, I really do think that he may be the only male in the series who truly views her as a capable ruler and actually respects her, they have a mutually beneficial relationship as well as some similar traits in my opinion. She gave him the means to conduct his experiments and validation for them instead if shunning him and being disgusted. He gives her his loyalty and thw use of his inventions to secure her reign. They are similar in the fact that at the time of their meeting they both were considered the lowest of the low. Humiliated and exiled. They kinda saved each other.
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Hiromu Arakawa is truly a treasure. FMAB is probably heralded as one of the best written series of all time, and it was written by a woman. All of the female characters are really good but I love Riza in particular.
For me feminist media is totally unlike anything we have these days.
I'm probably older than a lot of farmers on here but my media heroines (the younger characters who I totes aspired to be when I grow up) growing up weren't overt feminist icons, they were just competent people that happened to be humans.
Characters like Ripley from the first few Alien movies. Or Judge Anderson in 2000AD. Or Alyx from the Half-Life games.
None of them are defined by their relationship to men, neither professionally nor romantically. They're just the best at what they do.
That's what's lacking in modern depictions of female characters. It's either "ra-ra-ra, look, even a girl can do this competently" or its "ooooh the boys can't compete and they fucking hate her because of that" or "yeah, she's good, but let's shoehorn in a chemistry-less romance or a tragic story about how she can't ever have kids and that's why she worked her ass off to become good at what she does". The last one totally describes Black Widow and the witch from Marvel, unfortunately. The first two describe Captain Marvel. There's countless other modern "heroines" that fall into one or more of those three categories. It's pathetic.
Even worse, Disney wrote an entire fucking scene into the Captain Marvel movie so that she could be washing dishes onscreen. How the fuck was that movie hailed as a feminist landmark and something that young girls should aspire to and be proud of???? Still salty bout that.
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I wish there were more series like Touhou with regards to female representation. Men are insignificant background characters at most and female characters are unique and have their own adventures without it feeling weird or pandering in the slightest. Not to mention it's all made by one random ass Japanese dude so I don't have to worry about lining the pockets of a CEO who couldn't give less of a fuck about women.
If only the creator were female… (though from what I've heard his wife is involved with the games and most artists he hires are women).
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NTA and I hope I don't sound handmaiden-ish, but I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating the concept of a nearly all-female cast, while detaching it from the contextual reasons behind its existence in this instance.
Of course, no one wants to make waifufag pedobait to pander to a scrote fanbase. The whole essence of Touhou (most characters being female and running the stories instead of acting as support/back-up to male characters) is still nice to see, though.
They’re insignificant because the creator wanted to make pretty games and later on considered adding them but decided against it because it would throw off the balance.
If he were interested in otaku pandering you’d think he wouldn’t have waited 20 years before doing so much as drawing a character with boobs.
Any fandom with scrotes in it is going to be filled with porn no matter how clean and family friendly the source material is (look at shit like MLP for instance).
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The Tale of Princess Kaguya is absolutely one of my favorite movies. It is a stark and moving story about Princess Kaguya struggling against who she wants to be vs. who she is expected to be. Constantly facing sexism (both ambivalent and otherwise) and doing things for the people she loves even at the expense of her own happiness. It is both difficult and empowering to watch her fight her own captivity and make the best of her circumstances.
I'm not whiteknighting for men but a man liking smaller breasts does not automatically make him a pedo. That's like saying a woman is a pedo for liking clean shaven men. It's also problematic
because it basically implies a small breasted woman is less of a woman.
I thought Mad Max: Fury Road was pretty decent about forced impregnation but then I found out they had Eve Ensler as a consultant lmao. To a lot of second wavers she was seen as groundbreaking since she made a whole play about vaginas (The Vagina Monologues) but now she's saying shit like this: "The Vagina Monologues never intended to be a play about what it means to be a woman. It is and always has been a play about what it means to have a vagina. In the play, I never defined a woman as a person with a vagina."
Fuck all the big-name creatives living in their Ivory Towers.
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Have any anons watched the Love Witch? How was it? It was labelled as a feminist movie by some people but others said it was sex positive and I am not a fan of that.
Also Aliens is about toxic
Also samefagging here but can I ask what exactly “toxic
masculinity” is supposed to mean? Sounds redundant because gender itself is toxic
so there is no such thing as “healthy masculinity”. Masculinity can only exist as a way to dominate femininity to socialise the sexes into a hierarchy so different cultures may have different ideas about gender but masculinity is always superior to femininity
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I think "Alien" is more feminist than any other movie recently released, and that is saying something.
People label a movie as "feminist" not because the plot is about the feminist movement or the issues women face everyday, but because it has strong, not-stereotyped female characters. Ripley isn't sexualized to hell and back, something that seems like a miracle even nowadays.
I think they can be regarded as feminist, since these types of movies show girls that they can be whatever they want, aside from supermodels or flawless ageless girls.
Idk about Miyazaki,though. He portrays little girls on his movies, and I don't really see that as feminist. Kids in media aren't that stereotyped, since they aren't part of society yet and they are still innocent (read: they still are being educated about gender roles), so they usually are portrayed in a more gender-neutral way. That's why I wouldn't say his movies are feminist.
Plus, I didn't know he did that to his wife. And to think that he's regarded as a god between weeaboos. Gross… I feel bad for his wife.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
Excerpt is from Sofia Tolstoy.
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Not that anon, just jumping in here.
Disney did not get permission to use Moana's boat/camakau design from Fijian elders nor give any compensation to any Fijian organizations. Legally/copyright-wise they don't have to, but morally/culturally it would've been nice. >>1076
Though it is hard to pinpoint many specific things since they claim Moana is a mishmash of Polynesian cultures. I can only speak for Hawaiian culture and the movie seemed mostly Samoan/Fijian. The clothing, canoe, songs (like in We Know the Way), their style of dance was all very Samoan.
>>1672>can I ask what exactly “toxic masculinity” is supposed to meanToxic
Masculinity just means doing what are considered masculine activities/behaviours to a self/socially destructive degree. For example, weight-lifting is considered a masculine activity. Weight-lifting its-self is fine. but weight-lifting too much weight so that you can appear tough and that it permanently damages your muscles is usually toxic
. Some people consider stoicism to be masculine. Stoicism can be healthy and useful in the proper context. Stoicism to the point that you can't recognize or process your own emotions is toxic
. Women can be guilty of toxic
masculinity e.g women in male dominated fields often emulate toxic
Then why isn't there something like toxic
femininity where women care about their appearance so much the develop and eating disorder or waste all their money on superficial beauty products?
Generally when people talk about "toxic
masculinity", the female counterpoint is "internalized misogyny". That is, "toxic
masculinity" is toxic
because it harms not just the toxic
masculine person, but others. While "internalized misogyny" usually the primary victim
is the woman herself.
Not the anon you’re responding to, but women use femininity to harm each other all the time and they are called “handmaidens”. Gender is an inherently bad thing so I think calling it something like “toxic
masculinity” implies there is a non-toxic
form — which obviously does not exist. Internalized misogyny is not the same thing as femininity itself but hatred of females expressed by females towards themselves.
He does call himself a "feminist" but expects his wife to look after the children full time or she would be a "bad mother". He pursued his own animation career at the expense of hers and he was very absent from his family's life. His sons barely had a relationship with him growing up because he was too busy making movies which was his passion. I mean, you could chalk this up to cultural differences but how is he a "feminist" if he treats Japanese women like most Japanese men already do? Does he just think he's a feminist because he has female main characters? I suppose the moral of the story is to never trust any man who calls himself a "feminist".
Also Miyazaki claims to be "anti-war" but then he makes a movie glorifying Jiro Horikoshi who developed war planes that ended up killing thousands of Korean people. He even won an Order of the Rising Sun medal because of his contributions to Imperial Japan's war effort. Guess he's only anti-war in the context that Japan shouldn't be attacked and is the true victim
of WWII lmao (this is a thing a lot of Japanese like to believe in, including my own father + grandparents).
This reminds of that rabid twitter user Arthur Chu. He was featured in the documentary 'Who is Arthur Chu?'. He is obsessively tweeting every single day for hours on end and ignores the existence of his disabled wife.
>A vanity project whose subject is so utterly repulsive that it functions better as an accidental hit piece. 93 minutes of Arthur, mouth breathing, hunched over his phone, sub-tweeting egg avatars while his wife is constantly on the verge of a mental breakdown.>Arthur spends much of the documentary at speaking engagements where he lectures on the importance of listening to women to understand different perspectives, yet whenever his wife wants to talk about anything other Twitter, he interrupts and changes the subject.>An awkward dinner conversation between Arthur and his father is one of the most telling scenes of the documentary. His father suggests that Arthur should spend at least one day a week actually speaking to his wife, instead of staring at his phone screen. You can actually see Arthur's brain begin to shut down at this suggestion and responds only in murmurs.>My soul actually left my body during the infamous 'diner scene', a section whose reputation actually underplays how awkward it is. It features Arthur who, as usual, is staring at Twitter, and his wife trying her hardest to hold back her tears. In the middle of pouring her heart out to Arthur, he interrupts so he can tell her about a new post he made. Needless to say, the "They are now separated" line during the epilogue was a welcome ending.
masculinity” is a pop psychology term mostly used by libfems which is why it doesn’t make sense. Other shitty libfem terms include: slutshaming, whorephobia, femmephobia, TERF, SWERF, weaponized femininity, gender identity, queer
Honestly, that movie was kinda weird.>The Wind Rises continues this blame evasion throughout, evincing an ideal of pacifism while positioning Japan as the target of Chinese and American assault. We see Japanese planes downed by a Chinese foe in a mid-film reverie — a shockingly insensitive image given that Japan was invading China during this time, not the other way around. Later, an American bomber floats above a graveyard of burned-out aircraft over the defeated Japanese empire. In contrast, no Japanese pilot is ever seen shooting at an enemy, even though Jiro’s most famous invention, the Zero plane, was designed and used solely for military purposes. The consequences of his work — that is, corpses — are likewise absent. In the film, Jiro never expresses sympathy for the people his people killed. His grief is strictly reserved for the deaths of his planes. https://www.villagevoice.com/2013/12/11/the-trouble-with-the-wind-rises/
I don’t care for Anita but a lot of women have said the same thing. They think female characters shouldn’t just be female versions of male characters but characters who can use “feminine qualities” to solve problems like the opposite of what this anon wants to see >>809
Not really sure how to feel about this tbh.
>>1943>Guess he's only anti-war in the context that Japan shouldn't be attacked and is the true victim of WWII lmao (this is a thing a lot of Japanese like to believe in, including my own father + grandparents).
yikes that is so horribly fucking ridiculous, how do you stand your father and grandparents? >>1955>>1943>>1949>>1953
As someone who's liked a couple of his films this is really disappointing to hear. I didn't know this guy was such trash. Honestly I already have a hard time comfortably consuming anything japanese because of the false beliefs and ideals most people (including content creators) tend to have there.
Oh, I love this thread so much!>>795>>880
Anthy is my fave character as well. She is incredible and represents the kind of female representation that I want to see in media. She’s a flawed and fucked up person, but easy to empathize with and so fascinating to watch grow. Personally I have zero interest in ‘empowering’ female characters like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman or any other flavor of the month kIcKaSs WoMaN. I like interesting and nuanced characters, I literally never felt empowered by fictional beauties who can do no wrong and are good fighters. I understand why other women/girls might love that sort of characters though.
I really appreciate Utena as well, even though I do not relate to her as much. She is extremely believable as a young teen – smart, but still very naïve about people and world around her. Her arc has a great portrayal of child grooming
. It’s even worse to watch the second time, when you know exactly what is going on. Heartbreaking.
All of the Utena characters are extremely well-written tbh. You will love and relate to at least one.>>885
I love Gillian Flynn novels, especially Dark Places (though the protagonist of Sharp Objects was the most relatable to me). If anyone knows similar books or movies, I would love recs.
Gone Girl blew my mind the first time I read it and I'm proud to own a paper copy (even though I keep most of my books on my ebook reader).
I don't care that much about his opinion since he was pretty absent from my life and even though we lived in the US, he worked for a Japanese international company so it had very long work hours. I feel like I was raised solely by my mother (who was a housewife) while my father was just kinda there in the background. I wouldn't be surprised if my parents were cheating on each other since infidelity isn't such a big taboo in Japanese culture, they slept in separate beds, had a 12 year age gap, and just kind of tolerated each other's existence (they didn't fight but there wasn't any affection). Racist and conservative grandparents are pretty common regardless of nationality but a somewhat popular belief among Japanese people in general but especially the older generation is that Japan was just as much a victim
, or the "true victim
" of WWII because it was attacked with nuclear bombs (they just ignore the whole colonizing Asia part or pretend that Japan did it for altruistic reasons like "freeing Asia from Western colonialism").
I can see how Miyazaki would think a lot of these same things. In Japanese media, there is a surprising lack of Korean characters despite Koreans being the largest minority population (there used to be close to a million of them but they have a high assimilation rate to avoid discrimination) and anti-Korean sentiment is very common (there is a general anti-Asian sentiment because some Japanese don't see themselves as "Asian" or they think they are better than the rest of Asia which I think is comparable to how Britain sees continental Europe). Some of my Japanese friends say anti-Korean things like "Why are Koreans always so angry" or "Why are Koreans so ugly" and they would try to be polite to Korean people they met but sometimes they just couldn't help but "slip out" some of those anti-Korean biases towards their own Korean friends. I completely understand why something like 'The Wind Rises' was quite controversial in South Korea.
It looks very good but is basically porny and the "jokes" fall completely flat. If you're a film buff and have seen all the movies it parodies you might appreciate it.
I saw someone mention the "Not All Men" reboot Twilight zone episode somewhere on lolcow in the last day, and I can't find the post to reply so I'm putting it here.
Just watched it and it's a pretty good watch in terms of being the most blatant commentary on male aggression (and how it relates to women/it is a choice) I've seen.
The original Twilight zone was a lot more gentle and artistic than this series, but it's good to see male critical media once in a while. (Sorry if this is offtopic, just wanted to recommend it)
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What are your thoughts on the show "Fleabag"?
the show highlights (although in a very casual manner) to instances where there is sexism, misogyny and unsolicited sexual advances faced by women and is pretty much an everyday reality for us. But what i really wanna see is how you all feel about the character "fleabag"(portrayed by Phoebe Waller-Bridge), her self-proclamation as a 'bad feminist' and her other shortcomings which are all too human. A difficulty of feminist representations is that it can sometimes get a little idealistic, trying to offer me great role models of women that “can do it all”. And I love it… but it’s also very high-pressure. Sometimes I don’t want to be inspired to be amazing, I want to feel allowed to be mediocre and petty. So the main character being a mess up and a loser was kinda empowering
>>2082>They say things like "Why are Koreans so ugly"
Kek how ironic since koreans are objectively better looking. Sounds like some jealousy mixed in there.
However the part about koreans and other asians being absent from their media seems true for most east asian countries. You rarely see other asians in korean or chinese entertainment, and they all share the same mentality that they're "better" than the others. Basically a superiority complex.
>I completely understand why something like 'The Wind Rises' was quite controversial in South Korea.
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That type of media exists, but it's aimed at young girls. Things like Winx, W.I.T.C.H., Monster High, etc. revolve around female friendship but don't appeal to mature women. I totally agree with you and I wish there were a Lord of the Rings thing but with females. I would read it (or watch the movie).
Btw, I've just realized why do I despise so much Blockbusters like Avatar or LotR. It's because they are so male centric that I can't get to watch those movies without yawning at least fifty times.
I recommend watching Ocean's Eight. The characters are ALL women, the movies is funny and there is no "lesbian bait" that I recall?
Also, Bride Wars. It's cheesy and bad, and stereotyped, but if you're bored give it a try. I liked the end lol.
And The Sisterhood of Travelling Pants!!!!! OMG I really like that movie watch it please!!! It's silly but so wholesome!!
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What do anons think about the Girls Mode / Style Savvy / Style Boutique series and it's female representation?
Majority of the characters are female and are owners of their businesses and big names in the fashion industry. I like the fact there's tons of variety of clothing, not everything is a stereotypical girly look. Another thing, 98% characters are not focused on men. Some men are involved and do come into shops, but they're not always boyfriends, sometimes it's the brother of the girl or it's implied he's a friend. Also I do like the fact there are women from varying careers coming into shops.
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I loved how Zelda was portrayed in BotW (also Urbosa was badass, I just wish the Gerudos hadn’t all been so focused on men). Princess Zelda since OoT has really helped get shit done though and I find her a good role model for young girls.
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The Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! anime looks promising. The character design is nice and the voices are too. Its about 3 girls who want to make an anime togheter.
I was reading it here!https://mangawindow.net/series/73423
hopefully the link works! May your dreams come true anon, and maybe one day we can cross paths!
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I can't watch anything that doesn't have at least an even number of female to male characters. Men just don't interest me and I don't relate to them or the stories they like to tell.
I'm a huge Grace & Frankie fan; the friendship between two older women makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. >>2810
So true. Male horror fans are always weirdos and you can tell it's erotic for them too.