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No. 445663
Discuss goth music, makeup, fashion that you love. People you admire, gossip, news, etc.
previous thread:
>>86956 No. 445669
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I’d give anything to go back and live in the late 90s/early 2000s. Felt like the perfect time to be a goth. I cant stop watching and reading goth stuff from that time period. It’s too late for me now but that nostalgia….
No. 445686
>>445672Is there water in the ocean?
Are boar shitting and pissing in the forest?
No. 445701
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>>445612>But overall my sentiments align with >>445483 where I think a lot of the stuff look too tacky and costumey for me to fele to ever wear them which is funny because as someone who likes the romantic look, I've fallen for the trap of trying some of their pieces that look romantic only to not feel confident or comfortable in it at allThat's why I can't shop online. The reason I bought the Romwe top is because I could see and feel it. It hits the Romantic vibes and I think if I saw it on the internet, I wouldn't buy it. It's too much of a gamble for me, and I don't like to waste money. I'd be crushed if I bought something that looked romantic and find out the fabric was cheap or it didn't look right. The advice I can give anons who were scammed like that; get an unpicker and buy some material that you like. Unpick the shirt or whatever, and lay that garment over your chosen fabric. Cut out around the pieces and sew a new one. That might seem like a lot of effort, but if the style is right but the material is wrong, it's worth it. Trads did that in the 80s and 90s and I appreciate their dedication. I know it's easier to buy a few things from Shein or Killstar, but I feel like they enjoy scamming us.
No. 445707
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>>445669I think we tend to romanticise these eras. If you got picked on or harassed for being goth, it wasn't fun. Yes, the clothes were cool but they were expensive. I didn't like Christians chasing me down the street with a Bible to repent and come to God. There were better things like people didn't spend all their time looking at their phones. We actually hung out with friends. The music was ok but bands like Slipknot and Korn were lumped in with goth. You were still the outcast even among alt kids because goth was seen as the extreme end of the spectrum. Goths usually stuck together and it was a relief to see other goths in places because you knew you had something in common.
No. 445856
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>>445616>My favorite ever skirt came from a renaissance festival stall.I've bought some cool jewellery from Ren faires. Some do leather belts or leather under bust corsets. We can make ourselves unique without looking like Killstar clones.
No. 445870
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Anyone bought anything from
https://www.rocknromancevintage.com/ ? Basically a lot of 1950s style designs. They look nice in the photos. No idea how items look in person and what is quality. Picrel is a random image of black stuff from their offer.
No. 445941
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>>445669I'm honestly split tbh. On the one hand, while I wasn't a goth in the late 90s-early 2000s as I was just a "mallgoth" lol If I were an actual goth back then, I feel I would've liked it if I knew the right people and was able to go see goth bands performing. But on the other hand, finding goth music was quite difficult compared to the turn of music social media like bandcamp and music archive sites. And not to mention all the misappropriation that goth had with so many non-goth bands being referred to as "goth". I started to learn better about goth around 2008 and I then understood why older goths were annoyed of mallgoth.
>>445707I think you're right that maybe we do romanticize the earlier eras but it's tough not to if you lived through it, the more significant thing about the 90s and early-mid 00s was that it was final decades before the world got swept by social media. It existed, we had LiveJournal and MySpace but they were more like passing things and not used in a way like how TikTok is used. And of course we can still kinda live like those times, well try to anyway by hanging out with our friends in person if life hasn't gotten too busy. Unfortunately for many of us, life did get busy and we lost touch of friends and it can tough trying to make time to meet new people if your own life is busy plus the rising cost of things like gas and all that, it's kinda depressing lol.
And even though we did get picked on and bullied, I really did like that sense of camaraderie that alt kids had. School life could be tough but if you had that small but tight group, it made things so much more bearable and fun.
>>445714>Nowadays most people who dress alternative are boring vapid egirls or pandering to 'big titty goth girl' fetishistsI so feel this. I used to work at a grocery store and I remember a few times whenever I would see someone who looked alt, I would compliment and try to have a brief conversation about music. I still remember one of them who looked like a goth exclaim she didn't know who Sisters of Mercy or Rosetta Stone were but she really liked Ghost and was a Swifty… Not that it's wrong to like non-alt music or anything but it's rare when I find other people who are into goth rock or even alt rock these days. I know they are out there but they seem to rarer to find as each year passes. I think it's partly because rock music in general is not really popular anymore which makes me feel even older and I'm only in my early 30s lol.
No. 446044
>>445856A local renaissance faire in my state has a "thrift shop" booth. It carries pre-owned clothes from actual renn faire shops and brands, but also a bunch of normal clothes that can be worked into garb. Peasant tops, flowy skirts, corset style tops, accessories. I try to buy some stuff while I'm there. I also trawl thrift stores near me.
I have a pinterest board with some goth or alt looks that I like, so I often try to look for pieces that are close to those inspiration pics to help guide me. I work in an office-y job so corporate goth or "cardigan goth" (not a real thing, I know) are phrases I also keep in mind for more wearable but dark stuff.
No. 446398
>>446387I was actually watching a history video on makeup and I had to internally laugh when it got to Kat Von D and I kid you not but the person said she was the one who pioneered and popularized "goth makeup". Mind you this person didn't even talk about goth musicians like Siouxsie, Robert Smith, Patricia Morrison, and/or Monica Richard who were known for some of their makeup looks and actually are a part of the goth scene, well Patricia and Monica anyway since Siouxsie moved on.
Anyway I say this because your comment on how dark makeup is so accesible made me think of that video and what it said about Kat Von D's makeup brand and how back in the day you hd lots of people raving how goth they were for wearing her products when actual goths couldn't care less about it but to the masses, buying Kat Von D brand is like so goff.
No. 446926
>>446908It was an okay song but I wouldn't personally tink of it as a goth song but it is some groovy dark synthwave. Shame though because some goth style guitars would've really sounded nice with that song and the band clearly knows of that style of guitar as they used it in this song (vidrel).
But as is, some fun synthwave and I can see it being a hit on the dancefloor.
No. 446936
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>>446932Are you like the whole one nona in this threads that has problem with drag makeup despite it being widespread in punk?
No. 446938
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No. 446964
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As a non goth I wanted to share my goth experience. My friend at the time a few years ago took me to a goth concert. It was a bunch of bands playing the strangest sounding music to my kpop loving ass and people dancing in the oddest way. At first i was so uncomfortable because it was so dark and the dude sounded like he was crying on stage. But quickly I started having fun. I had the BEST time of my life. I felt so free. I didn’t worry about dancing weird because we all were. I felt like I developed abs becauseI was laughing and dancing so much. I never felt so happy to be alive. By the end of the concert a girl came up to me and even called me pretty. I complimented her too. I was shocked because I’m pretty sure I was dressed like a normie’s version of a goth. It was so nice. I’ve always wanted to go back but I don’t have friends anymore smh. But I swear it was the best time I ever had in my life. I just want to thank you Goths for making me feel welcomed that night. I wanted all of your shoes.
No. 447172
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Has anyone else heard about this or other labels pulling a stunt like this? Any label recs that have stated they won't be using AI. It just seems so antithetical to the spirit of goth. For a scene that is so diy and started from the punk movement, it's gross.
No. 447263
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I'm trying to find a shoe for everyday that still fits my look. But after looking at so many options I'm undecided which one of those look best. Any ideas?
also nico was kind of proto goth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jYbzHPZOM No. 448004
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>>445498>It feels like a lot more mainstream clothes could be remixed into something goth back in the '90s and '00s. I remember being able to pick up romantic tops with dramatic sleeves like what you've posted, Victorian-looking jewelry, quality velvet and lace, flowing skirts, and interesting boots at department stores.This. I remember some shops like Target, K-Mart, or even Kohl's selling romantic tops. It wasn't marketed to us, but you could totally make it work in a goth wardrobe. If if was cotton I would dye them burgundy or black. I had a top like picrel that was black and it went with everything. Long dusters were easy to come by and cotton maxi dresses or skirts looked very romantic year round. I remember some shops selling pointed toe boots for autumn. I really miss those days.
No. 448089
>>448086Heck, even bell crop tops are available there
https://www.walmart.com/search?q=bell+crop+topAre you nonas even trying?
No. 448273
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>>448164I think this would be the reason for Zoomers reviving the 90s with 'whimsy goth'. When the runways started doing goth or witch themes, every store tried to copy it. More than likely this is the reason the 1990s-2000s carried that sort of style.
No. 448330
>>448290I think that it's kinda cool seeing how these people make those hairstyles out of wigs, it's quite creative and at this point in time I can understand if someone doesn't want to fry their hair. But I also understand how it can give a part-timer to even poser vibe. Like the person only made the wig to film their TikTok video, then plop it off and put it in their closet not wearing it again until they film their next TikTok video or Instagram photo.
That being said, my sentiment mirrors
>>448314 where so long as they genuinely like the music and it's not some costume used to get "cool" points for attention on their social media, it's all good.
No. 448472
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No. 448473
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No. 448474
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No. 448573
>>448346>My dad would not let me dye my hair black. He thought it was too extreme.Kek man this kinda takes me back though for me, it was my mom who wouldn't let me dye my hair black, my dad was indifferent but my mom got final say and it wasn't until I was about 16 where she finally let me. It's just funny how back in the late 90s and 00s, dying your hair black was considered "extreme", I wonder if it's still like that now?
That said, I can understand why one would think that someone who only wears a black wig but keeps their hair a natural blonde color could read as a poser in the term of a "part-timer" but personally, I try not to judge on that stuff so long as the person actually listens to and likes the music.
No. 448721
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No. 448818
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>>448573>It's just funny how back in the late 90s and 00s, dying your hair black was considered "extreme", I wonder if it's still like that now?As far as teenagers go, I'm not sure. I see some with dyed hair but most seem pretty average. The ones who are alt or goth bordering have purple or blue hair. I haven't seen many with black hair, which is interesting.
>but keeps their hair a natural blonde color could read as a poser in the term of a "part-timer"I had some strong views about what goth is when I was a teen. It had to be black or nothing. But I eventually relaxed on those ideas. I could wear a purple skirt if I wanted to. Goths could have brown or blonde hair if they wanted(but I still think black looks better). They could look like one of the Cretins from Class Of Nuke'em High so long as they listen to the music. Because like we've all said, goth is a music based subculture.
No. 449108
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>As far as teenagers go, I'm not sure. I see some with dyed hair but most seem pretty average. The ones who are alt or goth bordering have purple or blue hair. I haven't seen many with black hair, which is interesting.
AYRT and yeah, I see a lot more alt looking youths with unnatural colors, mainly purple and blue as well, it's honestly kinda boring (but expected) to see.
>I had some strong views about what goth is when I was a teen. It had to be black or nothing. But I eventually relaxed on those ideas.
>Goths could have brown or blonde hair if they wanted(but I still think black looks better)
I can totally understand, I too think that black hair looks the best though I also think that blonde could look nice with the look as well but I think it's because I had a big crush on Sean Brennan from London After Midnight and he used to sport blodne hair before he eventually dyed his hair red and stuck with that color for the longest and no hate to his style but I felt the blonde looked a lot better kek He seems to have dyed his hair black in recent years and I think it looks quite nice on him as well. But yeah seeing wild blonde hair contrast with black velvet outfits with the usual goth style jewelry, I think it can look quite pretty.
But yeah, just enjoy the music and don't worry about your hair color.
No. 449227
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>>449108>AYRT and yeah, I see a lot more alt looking youths with unnatural colors, mainly purple and blue as well, it's honestly kinda boring (but expected) to see.I wonder if Trads saw us like that, because in the 2000s most of us had red hair. I used to dye mine with Manic Panic Pillarbox Red. Then later on I used Vampire Red because the burgundy went with my Romantic style.
>I can totally understand, I too think that black hair looks the best though I also think that blonde could look nice with the look as wellI think blonde goth can be too harsh when it looks like Taylor Momsen. Seeing old pics of Trads, some of them had blonde or brown hair. It was still very much a music focused scene, and I think some punks may have gravitated to goth. Early goth looked punky anyway, so it really doesn't matter it's just a personal preference. If I saw a blonde goth in a club today, I would notice the contrast but I wouldn't judge them for it.
No. 449229
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Just posting some pics of blonde goths. I'm not saying you must have black hair to be goth. You can have whatever color hair or no hair at all.
No. 449230
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No. 449231
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No. 449232
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No. 449237
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I don't know where she got that outfit, but I want it.
No. 449293
>>449154Based
>>449227Hun, GOTHS are PUNKS
And back in the 80s you had much more limited access to hair dye in unnatural colors. We discussed that in old thread.
>>449237That's like the most stereotypical 80s goth outfit
2nd hand wedding dress made out of natural fabrics + a lot of black dye
(unintegrated posting style) No. 449467
>>449227>I wonder if Trads saw us like that, because in the 2000s most of us had red hair. I used to dye mine with Manic Panic Pillarbox Red. Then later on I used Vampire Red because the burgundy went with my Romantic style.AYRT and kek, I didn't dye my hair red but I did do red streaks at one point. Though my style at the time was very casual.
>>449227Well Taylor Momsen isn't a goth and her style doesn't look goth neither, I know she wears a lot of black but whenever I see her, I don't think "goth", I think modern 2010s rock chick but that's just me lol
But the pics you posted with
>>449230 >>449229
>>449230 >>449231
>>449232 I think they all look great lol.
And sure
>>449293 makes a fair point that hair dye in unnatural colors were hard to come by which is why you didn't see many goths dying their hair blues, purples, and greens but I feel like if they were a thing, people in the scene may have gotten burnt out seeing it if it got done to the extent we see them today.
No. 449550
>>449462I'm sorry but the ending was pretty shit. She started off on a banger and declined with But can't we be goth because of the clothing and not the music? (gah!) Tell me she's not a Jake fan because he said the same thing. Then she sort of whinges at us for -rightfully- preserving our subculture.
>How do you expect people to learn if you knock them down when they're just getting startedDon't get into it to be cool. If you start with the music you are less likely to get pushback. We tell them what goth is and they have a meltdown. Poor delicate things.
>Compared to someone like Shego from Kim Possible who's just a dark femme fatale type and Raven who is just a somber magic girl. So she lost me there.I don't know why she bothered to mention them because they aren't goth. She fell into the same mindset that emo is goth. The character wears black, that doesn't automatically equal goth.
>The video didn't even go over OnlyFans women using the scene to play up the fetish that has negatively impacted us actual goths.People like ReeRee and RazorCandi wearing fetish gear and using the hashtag goth makes society think we're whores. My friend was goth and stopped because she was tired of men coming onto her assuming she's into kink. That stuff used to stay in fetish clubs but now it's everywhere. I'll give the video a 5/10. The first part was great, the second part felt like her personal issues with us. But hey, #goth will get you the views, right?
No. 449671
>>449550Ayrt and I'm glad I'm not the only one who came to that comnclusion considering the like/dislike on the ratio. Again, strong start but shat the bed in the second half to the end. I'm not sure if she's a Jake fan but she probably is a fan of
Toxic Tears and Vessel Of Blood type YouTubers, two of the biggest examples of goth posers on Youtube who get a decent amount of views. And probably It's Black Friday wherein she is a real goth but 99% of her content is focused on fashion and makeup and to an outsider who doesn't know much about goth who stumbles across her channel, they would probably think it's about fashion and not about music. Either way, she had some nerve getting pissy when we in the actual scene do take offense to seeing our subculture used as a fashion runway to illicit more social media attention, especially in the recent decade whereas back in the 90s and 00s, we were getting our asses beat or shit thrown at us for being into the scene and back then it really was for genuine interest (for most, I know attention seekers were a thing then as well hence the "mallgoth").
>Don't get into it to be cool. If you start with the music you are less likely to get pushback. We tell them what goth is and they have a meltdown. Poor delicate things.Exactly. While it's true that nowadays it is understandable if one gets into the scene from the fashion, it should be apparent that the scene is really music-based if you actually dig deeper and it's all about listening to the music from there where you won't get much pushback if it's the look that drew you in initially. But if you're doing it just to get likes and follows on your Instagram or TikTok all while treating it like a costume or persona, you shouldn't be surprised when those of us do get irritated.
>I don't know why she bothered to mention them because they aren't goth. She fell into the same mindset that emo is goth. The character wears black, that doesn't automatically equal goth.Exactly. TShe got a point for mentioned Angela from Night of the Demons who is a good example of "goth coded" or that one character from the World Ends who wore a Sisters of Mercy shirt. But no mention of Triana Orpheus or how The Venture Bros was a show created by a goth? I just feel she did a bit of surface level look.
>ReeRee & RazorKandi wearing fetish gear while calling it goth in hashtagsYeah totally. And even before ReeRee became an OnlyFans model, she was a poser in the sense of she was a metalhead who called herself goth because she liked wearing black and was obsessed with horror stuff. RazorKandi, I remember her as a Deathrock model though I never learned if she actually liked goth music (I have a feeling she didn't…). Either way yeah, the fetish crap is annoying and I'm sorry that your friend let it get to her, I had a moment where I considered stopping with goth after getting cross comments from moids as well but I like the music and scene too much to let go so I stayed.
>5/10 ratingYeah I'd give it that too. Would've given her a 10 if she didn't whinge about goths being protective of the subculture from TikTok Zoomer trenders.
No. 449735
>>449676>Did rivetheads go to the BDSM clubs? It was not uncommon to have alt music (industrial, goth) events and BDSM/fetish events in same venues in Europe (as far as I know also in the USA) even with same DJs playing sets at both. It's still a thing at least in some parts here. There are many ties between alt music and fetish scenes on other continents. Fetish party been also a part of Wave Gotik Treffen program for many years.
>>449674Aggrotech has Detroit techno influences due to New Beat ancestry (which was based on mixing pitch shifted EBM tracks with Detroit Techno style bass lines and drums). Topic was disputed in previous thread.
There were times when alt events had mix of many different genres including goa, dark electro, hellectro, agrotech, ebm, futurepop, gothic rock, even metal (there are still nights with mix of metal and gothic rock going that I know of).
No. 449802
>>449777Dammit, I accidentally deleted my post!
>In the last thread an anon shared a video they did of them doing a so called "romantic goth" look and their looks looked nothing like romantic gothI was one of the nonna's complaining about that. I've been into Romantic since the 2000s and her clothes just looked like a cheap costume. Even her dress in the talk show looked gimmicky. I know they like the music but most of their interest seems imaged based, tbh.
>Hearing that Evanescence is the "goth" band that got her into goth kinda says it all. Evanescence aren't a goth band, never have been and are not currently and even Amy Lee herself has stated that she has no interest in the goth sceneShe could've gone with The Cure instead. I know she said it after and that she's answered the question so many times. But normies are gonna to pick out that one thing and think, Yeah heavy eyeliner and black hair is goth.
>I swear it's either people thinking being obsessed with Halloween makes them gawf or being into paganism.For real. She all but promoted that by telling the other host to go out and do the Punk Rock hands, but then told him to do something else. At least they let Connor say goth is a music based subculture. But with the whole interview it doesn't look like it. When they finished with the gendie thing, I was like Great. So what are normies gonna take from that?
1. Halloween does a goth make.
2. Goths are gay.
Why don't those people ask regular goths in the wild, instead of these "influencers" online? We're here, we can tell you instead of these goth cliques speaking for us.
No. 449823
>>449802>I was one of the nonna's complaining about that. I've been into Romantic since the 2000s and her clothes just looked like a cheap costume. Even her dress in the talk show looked gimmickAh hey, yeah, I was conversing with you about it as a fellow fan of romantic goth who got into the look in the late 2000s. You're right, it did look like a cheap costume but she could've made it work if she added the right accessories. Swap out the overdone platform boots (these never read "goth" to me personally) for some pointy toe boots along with some big teased hair, and a rosary and it would've looked more accurate. Her boyfriend was on the better track of mixing in some alternative elements with the bondage looking pants contrasting the waistcoat and poet-style blouse but still, some pointy toe looking boots and a rosary would've made it look more "goth".
Don't get me wrong, I do like the dark romantic look on it's own but if you're trying to make a "romantic goth" look, it really needs to be romantic with goth elements which means taking from certain staples you see in goth fashion that comes from the bands and these two just didn't really pull enough from it but to be fair to them, a lot of people tend to fall into the same mistake of thinking a straight up dark romantic look = romantic goth look.
(For those curious what this was about, vidrel and the outfit showcase starts at 8:53)
>She could've gone with The Cure instead. I know she said it after and that she's answered the question so many times. But normies are gonna to pick out that one thing and think, Yeah heavy eyeliner and black hair is goth.Yeah the distinction must be made, especially on a live TV appearance where it's the chance to get the word out of what the scene really is and if you conflate bands like Evanescence, Marilyn Manson, and/or HIM (and others) while speaking about goth and not making the distinction, you can inadvertently give the wrong impression of what goth actually is.
>Gendie/"Queer" ShitYeah seriously, that stuff can fuck off. Yes there were men and women who were gender nonconforming in the goth scene and it was a lot more welcoming to homosexual people during the 80s but the difference between then and now is that back in the 80s and even the 90s, they didn't make it their whole personality and they weren't denying that they were men and women, you know they actually lived in reality unlike the hopeless gendies today who can't shut up about it. Also it's wild to me how these people think calling homosexual people "queers" is a good thing, it's a deragotary term and the only people I know who think otherwise are non-homosexual people who want to be quirky. Sorry to go off-topic there but hearing him keep saying "queer" this and "queer" that was annoying (what does "queer" mean anyway in these guys' minds? Are you calling gays & lesbians "queers"?)
Connor really should've kept that section brief because yeah, now it's just giving another wrong impression that the scene is about gendie/"queer" bullshit when it isn't.
>Why don't those people ask regular goths in the wild, instead of these "influencers" online? We're here, we can tell you instead of these goth cliques speaking for us.I agree. Why can't these productions just go to a goth club and interview the attendees or scout people there instead of going for random influencers. They did this in the 80s and 90s and with the exception of some stupid things being said, it mostly was kept straight-forward.
No. 449827
>>449809Nah that's totally
valid, I have fondness for Halloween as well. I like the autumn vibes and even though the holiday doesn't feel as exciting as it did when we're kids, that whimsy is still there if ever so faint (just sucks when you have to work on the holiday kek). But yeah it was a great time to get black lipstick and spooky-themed jewelry back in the day but like you mentioned, you can get these things year round now so the rareness is not there anymore but the vibe definitely is.
I just get annoyed when people act like liking the holiday is a sigh that one is goth when like, a lot of people like the holiday just fine and goth doesn't own the holiday as it existed long before goth was even a thing.
No. 449883
>>449671>Either way, she had some nerve getting pissy when we in the actual scene do take offense to seeing our subculture used as a fashion runway to illicit more social media attention, especially in the recent decade whereas back in the 90s and 00s, we were getting our asses beat or shit thrown at us for being into the scene and back then it really was for genuine interestShe did have the nerve to throw a tantrum over that. The link that was posted in the alt threads(sharing vid rel) mentioned the hate we got. Every alt person in the UK knows about Sophie. People were harassed and attacked for being goth. And all for liking the music, so she can fuck off with her attitude. B-b-but we can like the fashion without listening to the music, don't be such an elitist.
Don't wash over the reality that being involved in the scene could've gotten you killed. Even in those times, wearing black would give you problems so Gen Zed making it a fashion statement is insulting.
>RazorCandiShe was a deathrock model and now does OnlyFans porn. I was shocked because one day I was looking for pictures of her and she had her boobs and fanny out. If you're going to do that, don't do it online ffs.
>Either way yeah, the fetish crap is annoying and I'm sorry that your friend let it get to herThe last time I saw her we went to a shop. She told me the man at the till had asked her out. Then he was going on about whips and kink and she said 'I'm just tired of men thinking that's what goth is. They look at you wearing black and assume you're into freaky shit.' It's unfortunate but I guess the men in her town are fairly sheltered or see people like ReeRee and think that's what we are.
No. 449886
File: 1733869231145.jpg (90.11 KB, 736x896, dd816bd85e2027a270dd673a365222…)
>>449823>You're right, it did look like a cheap costume but she could've made it work if she added the right accessories.There are so many examples to make a romantic outfit still look goth. I've seen pics of 80s and 90s romantic that didn't look like a Halloween dress. Again, it's the hair, makeup and accessories that complete the look.
>Yeah the distinction must be made, especially on a live TV appearance where it's the chance to get the word out of what the scene really isReally wish they did that especially since Ireland is super Catholic. They sorta played to the stereotypes so that what normies are gonna remember, unfortunately.
>Yeah seriously, that stuff can fuck off. Yes there were men and women who were gender nonconforming in the goth scene and it was a lot more welcoming to homosexual people during the 80s but the difference between then and now is that back in the 80s and even the 90s, they didn't make it their whole personality and they weren't denying that they were men and womenYes to all of it. They weren't pretending to be asexual aliens. It was just whatever. I mean, the gay dude in our circle hung out with us but he still liked goth and alt music. He knew he was a guy and sometimes he wore lipstick. But he wasn't pretending to be a woman, he wasn't taking over our spaces. He just felt better/safer with a group of us. We didn't care that he was gay, he used to tell us which boys he would kiss. Today, it's ALL about Look At Me I'm Special. It's that mentality plus infiltrating everything and punching people who don't agree. That is not the goth subculture mindset and I don't want it being used to represent us.
>I agree. Why can't these productions just go to a goth club and interview the attendees or scout people there instead of going for random influencersIdk but they should. It's one reason I think Freyja's "documentary" won't work because she's interviewing social media influencers, not everyday people. She might speak to a few random goths, but probably none with less than 20,000 subscribers. The gothic "influencers" are superficial, drama fueled makeup artists that give us a bad name. They are the ones talk shows pick so I'm worried they're fake lifestyle will be the final word on the subculture.
No. 449889
File: 1733869723725.jpg (97.83 KB, 735x716, c83bc78721cc3cc9e46e042a7b0bb6…)
>>449823>Her boyfriend was on the better track of mixing in some alternative elements with the bondage looking pants contrasting the waistcoat and poet-style blouse but still, some pointy toe looking boots and a rosary would've made it look more "goth".Yeah, I forgot to say his look was on point until he added the platform boots. Like we aren't death rockers, lol. If he really wanted to go with classic 80s romantic, some pikes would have complimented the look imho.
No. 449968
File: 1733897441619.png (414.63 KB, 429x565, cover-dim1-3814289389.png)
>>449883>I was shocked because one day I was looking forShe has been doing naked stuff since at least 2013 if no longer. You didn't follow her for quite a while.
There been also other models you know from the '00s scene that had nude sessions. Featured in picrel book did photoshoots for blueblood net
https://www.blueblood.net/2014/11/california-deathrock-book-published/ No. 450167
File: 1733940865362.jpg (32.82 KB, 433x700, tumblr_o01hf22ZD41tlrio8o1_500…)
>>449883Oh I actually watched that vid and I thought it was great! That guy totally nailed the topic and this is why I prefer watching videos like that being made by actual goths who are not zoomers because the latter has to deal with too much conflicting issues and just don't have that "I was there" quality to fight past the misinformation that came after that gen z has no reference to since they just weren't there unfortunately.
Anyway you're right that there's a damn good reason why we are protective and offended when people treat our subculture as a novelty prop for attention just because it's convenient. Sophie Lancaster and this other goth couple (I can't remember their names but they were attacked in a subway back in the 2000s) shows the extent of how far people would go to antagonize us for our harmless interest. Again it's easy for these zoomers to not even think about this stuff since they didn't have to live it but we fucking did and if they had as well, they'd probably understand why this is such an annoying issue that has really dwindled our subculture to a fault.
?RazorCandi doing OnlyFans porn
Oh wow, I'm sad to see she fell into that life but yeah, I can see how she would be playing into that "goth slut" stereotype if she's still portraying herself as a deathrocker (does she still refer to herself as that or goth?)
>The last time I saw her we went to a shop. She told me the man at the till had asked her out. Then he was going on about whips and kink and she said 'I'm just tired of men thinking that's what goth is. Yep a tale as old as time that many of us have had to deal with in some capacity…
>They look at you wearing black and assume you're into freaky shit.' It's unfortunate but I guess the men in her town are fairly sheltered or see people like ReeRee and think that's what we are.Damn, that's really too bad but I hope with time in the future if her interest is still there, she finds her way back to the scene as it'll always be open.
No. 450205
File: 1733942526672.webp (91.73 KB, 900x900, It's_Black_Friday.webp)
>>449886>Yes to all of it. They weren't pretending to be asexual aliens. It was just whatever. I mean, the gay dude in our circle hung out with us but he still liked goth and alt music. He knew he was a guy and sometimes he wore lipstick. But he wasn't pretending to be a woman, he wasn't taking over our spaces. He just felt better/safer with a group of us. We didn't care that he was gay, he used to tell us which boys he would kiss. Today, it's ALL about Look At Me I'm Special. It's that mentality plus infiltrating everything and punching people who don't agree. That is not the goth subculture mindset and I don't want it being used to represent us.It's just so annoying now because so many goths seem to have blindly bought into this crap and even if there are goths who don't believe in the gender ideology nonsense, they'll get ostracized like what happened to that goth YouTuber Kai Decadence when he came out as gender critical. So if you value keeping your social ties within the goth scene, you more or less have to keep quiet about it. Personally I'm not too open about my views but I do sprinkle in kernels of what I believe when the topic comes up and I've been able to skate by that way but sometimes I just want to let lose and spill out all of how I really feel about this misogynistic and homophobic ideology and how it infected the goth subculture with having minds so open their brains are falling out.
>Freya's DocumentaryI had no idea that she was only interviewing influencers, what the fuck is she doing? You're right that influencers do not represent us every day people who are into the subculture, that is such a shallow move and will likely just add in even more dumb stereotypes and misinformation about the reality of goth and how it affects the average individual within the scene.
But to be perfectly honest, Freya has played a part in the bastardization of goth online. I know that she plays the music in her videos which does give some exposure to it as I see some comments left on certain songs of people saying "here because of It's Black Friday" but aside from that, her content is 99% expensive brand hauls and makeup. She never talks about goth music ever and the two times she did talk music, she reviewed a Marilyn Manson album and a Motionless In White album which just gives the impression to uninformed listeners that that stuff also counts as goth because the biggest popular goth youtuber is giving time to them. I wouldn't care as much if she actually reviewed some goth albums and not just focused on these very popular bands that are known to be confused with goth because of the musician's image but she hasn't.
Freya is just such an odd case. Part of me feels that she really is a goth as she really enjoys the music but on the other hand, I can't help but feel like it's all just a means for her to get D-list celebrity status. That it's all just a big show in order for her to get attention.
No. 450209
File: 1733942976596.jpg (101.12 KB, 736x1097, John_Koviak.jpg)
>>449889>Yeah, I forgot to say his look was on point until he added the platform boots. Like we aren't death rockers, lol. If he really wanted to go with classic 80s romantic, some pikes would have complimented the look imho.I just don't understand the obsession with platform boots. Even back in the 90s it was mostly the rivetheads (this includes "cybergoths") were the ones who loved those shoes, most goths seemed to prefer combat boots of pike styles carried from the 80s. Then again, I suppose it is probably because of 2000s deathrock revival influence since a lot of deathrockers at the time loved them some stompy boots which I suppose makes sense since the deathrock look does take on a more imposing look similar to that of what a rivethead look was like (you know, looking tough and all that lol).
Either way it really ruined the look on him and I agree that pikes would've really cemented the look.
No. 450219
Here's another video to add to the chopping block of obnoxius video made by a gen z person (filled with annoying gen z editing style) and another good example of why I don't think a gen z individual could really do a comprehensive history guide without muddling things. When he got the 90s and conflated the "mallgoth" thing as essentially the next form of goth, I knew where this was going. The 90s goth scene had actual goth music, a lot actually but they just weren't as notable to normies in that time since the scene was underground.
And while he was absolutely right about E-Girls and that they aren't listening to actual goth music and just trendy music, I just cannot fathom how anyone can seriously believe that an e-girl looks like a goth. To me, the e-girl style just looked like tumblr fashion but with plaid, platform boots, fishnets, and maybe some slightly edgier makeup but goth looking? How?
But as far as the annoying sexualization that has always been there but I feel like is worse now because of how you now have non-goth women using the goth as a marketing tool to market their Onlyfans or to get attention on TikTok, the biggest reasoning for this is simply just porn culture in general and how it's practically everywhere and you have a whole generation who grew up socialized into it because of how early they accessed social media.
Don't get me wrong, the sexualization was always there but I feel like it's on a whole other level now compared to then because of social media and porn culture clashing together.
>Goth wouldn't be goth without the fishnet tanlines and permanent deformed ribcages (from the corsets)
Disagree. Most goths do not wear corsets and fishnets are not only used in goth fashion. We still have the big hair and just the way we typically accessorize lol.
And then he follows that up with how goth hasn't really evolved in sound unlike punk has, are you serious? Comparing The Danse Society to She Past Away, you can see the evolution of taking the old but tweaking things.
>Sex Sells (when he was talking about how most music-based subcultures are sexualized while featuring sexualized women in those scenes)
No it doesn't. If that is really true than how come we don't see moids splayed out in a sexual manner when they're marketing something like a car or a tool set? Sex does not sell, treating women like objects to be consumed is what "sells". Let's be real here.
No. 450228
>>450209I've seen so many zoomers at goth events mixing classic rivethead elements into otherwise trad goth looks, we'd be having a rivethead revival if zoomers knew the vocabulary for it.
The effect is really strange though, it'll be '80s makeup with '10s drag queen polish to it, goth band tee and patches, rivethead stompy boots, like decades of dark scene archaeology on one person. Everything is a throwback to something in the past but none of it goes together.
No. 450688
>>450219>No it doesn't. Then how do you explain popularity of OF? Both among "models" and consumers?
>If that is really true than how come we don't see moids splayed out in a sexual manner when they're marketing something like a car or a tool set?Because these would be mostly appealing to gay men and not so to straight dudes? How many straight females you know find males in sexual poses appealing enough to watch them in every second ad?
No. 450724
File: 1733997295017.jpg (109.2 KB, 863x356, SLC-Punk-00_07_372022-03-20-15…)
>>450228ot-ish but trying to imagine zoomers attempting to wrap their heads around mod culture kek
No. 450726
>>450724I can't myself wrap my head around mod culture. I get the desire to dress fancy but the scooters part is weird.
BTW nice examples of DIYed decor on leather biker jackets on some rockers from the '60s in this video. 01:27, 01:31 timestamps for example
No. 450881
File: 1734034408850.jpg (187.26 KB, 1027x1405, Sex Sells 08600985-535b-5b6a-a…)
>>450688When I say that the "Sex doesn't sell", I mean that in the most open way possible because who are the ones who usually are overtly sexualized to the point of where they are consumed like objects and not people? Women. I'm pointing out how that term is just a means to justify treating women like sexualized objects that are meant to be consumed or bought. If "sex sells", then you'd be seeing it pushed onto both sexes, not just one overwhelmingly but this discussion is veering away from goth and into radical feminism and I don't want to derail. Just understand that that is why I disagree with that phrase, especially when it's used to justify the fetishization of goth women.
>Because these would be mostly appealing to gay men and not so to straight dudes? How many straight females you know find males in sexual poses appealing enough to watch them in every second ad?There are women who like seeing decently built half naked men. In the emo scene, I remember some girls would go wild when the guys would go topless on stage lol Or in the K-Pop scene where a lot of girls go nuts when the dudes flash their abs or incorporate outftis that showoff their chest and abs.
I don't disagree that you find slightly more women who find men appealing with clothes on then off but I digress.
No. 450888
File: 1734035100252.jpg (36.58 KB, 500x375, Serena.jpg)
>>450228Yeah I think you raise a very good point about why so many zoomer "goth" fashion looks so weird and not flattering, they go on Pinterest and get too inspired by all the different things they see and try to mix them with their "goth" look and it just ends up looking mismatched and not in a flattering way but then other zoomers see that and want to be like them and voila, you see tons of these zoomers having the same kind of mentality when making their outfits and it ends up looking off-putting aside from when they try to do the trad style and the makeup looks too sharp and clean and the clothes too generic from the fast fashion shops.
Like I'm trying to picture what a romantic goth look would look like if the person used platform boots and I just feel like those kinds of boots would just take away from the look because romantic goth relies on bold ornate styling alongside a goth staple so it's already a pretty out there look where you don't want things to overpower and clash.
I was trying to find an example I could look of of someone paring platform boots with a romantic goth look but I couldn't find any and so I just thought back to the character Serena from the adult animated series Downtown as her design seems like it was inspired by the romantic look since that was the look that was popular in the 90s at the time the show came out and they put her in platform boots. In the show it looks fine but it's also because the outfit looks quite casual.
No. 451254
File: 1734061283924.jpg (381.03 KB, 2500x1665, Sadie-Frost-Dracula-web-269968…)
>>450888zoomers grew with low quality modern clothing, quality been declaining in the '00s already especially in the 2nd half.
Most of them have never seen '00s goths in the wild. Just like many millenials "reviving" deathrock back in the '00s have never seen american goths (deathrockers) in the wild back in the '80s. Thats why their looks look so different than the US scene back in the '80s.
Most of zoomers have never been exposed to [printed] fashion magazines with gazillion fashion guides. You remember them? I do, guides on how to mix different elements of wardrobe, how to select clothing for your body type, even tips on formal fashion. Average punk back in the '80s knew much better how normies "shall" dress for formal ocassions than modern average zoomer and even most millenials. Back in the '80s you even had courses on that for young adults in Britain.
They even watch different movies than millenials did. A lot of blockbusters millenials been exposed to were heavy on historic side. Early goth was heavy influenced by horror movies of the '70s and earlier eras. The 90's by stuff like Dracula by Coppola and Interview with the Vampire. Many medieval and 19th century themed TV series and film stuff in general been around.
No. 451442
>>450167>issues and just don't have that "I was there" quality to fight past the misinformation that came after that gen z has no reference to since they just weren't there unfortunately. Yeah, they don't. I know some Zoomers have tried to pull the card that they understand cos they get bullied too. No, honey. You have laws against that. You might get teased but nobody is going to physically hurt you over it. We even had teachers give us shit for being goth, they would lose their jobs if they did it now.
>Again it's easy for these zoomers to not even think about this stuff since they didn't have to live it but we fucking did and if they had as well, they'd probably understand why this is such an annoying issue that has really dwindled our subculture to a fault. I think this needs to be brought up when talking about Millennial goths. Channels focus on the music or clothes but they really need to talk about this. Cyber bullying exists now but Gen Z didn't have kids literally waiting for you behind the school to attack you. Some of those kids got a kick out of harassing the "freak" so when zoomers are like "It's cool to wear black" I'm like Fuck you, zygote! Wearing black wasn't cool in the 2000s. We didn't do it for a fashion statement.
>Damn, that's really too bad but I hope with time in the future if her interest is still there, she finds her way back to the scene as it'll always be open.Yeah, I took a break from everything goth for awhile. When I came back, it was like meeting an old friend. I got into the subculture when I was 15 and it was so comforting to be in it again. I hope she can find that place in her where the music is what's important, not some moid's misconception.
No. 451447
File: 1734094428399.jpg (88.4 KB, 736x981, e02e3aee7a3f010b69e5b062900e00…)
>>450888>Like I'm trying to picture what a romantic goth look would look like if the person used platform boots and I just feel like those kinds of boots would just take away from the look because romantic goth relies on bold ornate styling alongside a goth staple so it's already a pretty out there look where you don't want things to overpower and clash.Found one. You're right, it clashes with the outfit. Its too harsh and doesn't flow. She could have done witch boots or a pointy toe boot to fit the look. My feet are too wide for pointed boots but I found some where the toe is a little narrow and it still works.
>and try to mix them with their "goth" look and it just ends up looking mismatched and not in a flattering way but then other zoomers see that and want to be like them and voila, you see tons of these zoomers having the same kind of mentality when making their outfits and it ends up looking off-puttingIt's like explaining to a Zoomer how to put toppings on a pizza. Then they throw marshmallows and sprinkles on it with chocolate syrup. That's what their style looks like to me.
No. 451452
File: 1734095324063.jpg (83.12 KB, 630x1170, 83deb38c03182b729091ccaf8aed61…)
>>450888If they do witch boots like Dorian's it would make the outfit work. But like I said
>>451447 the way they throw things together and it doesn't have an organic flowing symmetry. I've seen those pics on Pinterest where they slap a bunch of clothes in a collage and call it a set. Then zoomers copy that instead of adding their own thing. Like
>>451254 said, they could use a fashion guide. If you want to do Romantic, go with flowing fabrics, velvets, dark reds and purples, antique or old looking jewelry, pikes, pointed shoes or heels etc.
No. 451466
>>451455Well, very long calf boots in general worn with long skirts or hidden under pants legs are pointless. Long calfs were supposed to protect clothing or be the "show off" part you want to expose not to hide. The only point in wearing platforms with long skirt would be adding few inches to your height but in that case maybe wear skirt that covers platforms totally?
>>451452I'm not sure at this point how many zoomers ever worn anything other than cotton or polyester. Even formal clothing typically made out of wool is losing to polyester and cotton mixes.
No. 451558
File: 1734114192141.jpg (56.6 KB, 425x519, Gothic Beauty 003 (2001)_0000.…)
>>451254I think you might be right. Whenever I listen to those "how I became goth" stories from zoomers, a recurring thing I see aside from the tired old "I was obsessed with Halloween" type answers, they also list how they got into it from cartoon characters and well, most cartoon "goths" are not even goth since they don't reference music but seeing cartoons vs seeing goths in the wild is two different things. But then I've seen some mistake the edgy mallgoths of that time as "goth" as well. Point is, not many of them seemed to have seen actual goths but to be fair to them, as someone who got into goth in 2007 as a junior in high school, I only ever saw one actual goth in my school who was one of the deathrock revival enthusiasts. But unfortunately most alternative people in my school were emos and the emerging scenekids. Me, the deathrocker, and two mallgoths (they wore the Cradle of Filth shirts and TRIPP everything kek) were the only darker alternative people in my school so I can't act like I saw many goths in my personal school life neither.
But I do remember the fashion guides, I specifically remember getting the one picrel. Gothic Beauty Magazine wasn't perfect as it unfortunately mixed in the dark Industrial, "cybergoth", and gothic metal into it but at least in the earlier prints, it still featured some goth bands and that volume specifically did a nice view of the romantic goth style. I learned about Diva Destruction through here and I tried dressing like Debra lol
Zoomers get their inspiration from curated "sets" on Pinterest which are created by other zoomers and they don't have that "lived in" kind of feeling with their looks, it seems like it's all thrown together with no rhyme or reason.
No. 451560
>>451442>Yeah, they don't. I know some Zoomers have tried to pull the card that they understand cos they get bullied too. No, honey. You have laws against that. You might get teased but nobody is going to physically hurt you over it. We even had teachers give us shit for being goth, they would lose their jobs if they did it now.Man the teachers. I remember I had this one guy in my class who would always throw rolled up paper balls at me and my friend with his little group and the teacher would just give an uninterested "stop" and then he just stopped saying anything altogether. Pretty sure he was thinking that we kinda deserved it for dressing in all black. With the exception for the few teachers who did care, most carried an apathetic view of goth and alternative kids.
>I think this needs to be brought up when talking about Millennial goths. Channels focus on the music or clothes but they really need to talk about this. I agree. YouTuber Angela Benedict has actually talked about this a few times in her videos about the bullying her and her friends faced for being goth in the 90s. I've shared a few stories myself but I feel like the bullying I received in the early 2000s was a tad tame compared to my one guy friend who literally got jumped by a group of guys on his way home. I remember he didn't come to school the day after and I went to go check on him and that was when he told me what happened. This happened a few more times until he fought back and got suspended. They stopped messing with him as much after that but I remember finding it so ridiculous that he was the one who got suspended, it was so not fair.
So that's why when I think of what I faced which was usually having paper or rocks thrown at me and being called things like "whore", I feel like he got it worse because at least I didn't get jumped and physically beat on.
>Wearing black wasn't cool in the 2000s. We didn't do it for a fashion statement.For real. I mean, we goths and alternative kids thought black was cool but the overwhelming majority in society certainly didn't think that and would remind you at any turn they could.
>Yeah, I took a break from everything goth for awhile. When I came back, it was like meeting an old friend. I got into the subculture when I was 15 and it was so comforting to be in it again. I hope she can find that place in her where the music is what's important, not some moid's misconception.Very nice. Yeah, it is like meeting an old friend, that's a nice way to put it.
No. 451563
File: 1734115749568.png (653.5 KB, 455x833, LydiaFortner.png)
>>451447Oh good find anon! Yeah that looks pretty bad. It's like it starts out nice enough but then you get to those stompers and it gives you a mental whiplash. Though I feel like the skirt would look better in a black velvety or silky material, the cotton material doesn't really flatter the top half all that much.
But yeah I agree that witch boots or pointy toe boots would really cement the look beautifully.
>It's like explaining to a Zoomer how to put toppings on a pizza. Then they throw marshmallows and sprinkles on it with chocolate syrup. That's what their style looks like to me.Yeah that's definitely an accurate way to put. It's all supposed to be quirky but it's not doing what they think it's doing lol.
No. 451565
>>450205>sometimes I just want to let lose and spill out all of how I really feel about this misogynistic and homophobic ideology and how it infected the goth subculture with having minds so open their brains are falling out.The day will come when we will openly be able to talk about the sheer insanity of this. For now it's religious people who oppose this based on their religion, but there are normal people who are against it for obvious reasons.
>I had no idea that she was only interviewing influencers, what the fuck is she doing? You're right that influencers do not represent us every day people who are into the subculture, that is such a shallow move and will likely just add in even more dumb stereotypes and misinformation about the reality of goth and how it affects the average individual within the scene.She was at WGT this year for her documentary scam. Talking to the fashion influencers including Valentin Van Porcelain and anyone with 100,000 Instagram followers. Like what do they even know of the music, they're in it for the clothes and makeup.
>I see some comments left on certain songs of people saying "here because of It's Black Friday" but aside from that, her content is 99% expensive brand hauls and makeup. That's what pisses me off, is their shallow mindset; it creates misinformation about us(we're just hipsters into makeup) and stereotypes (goths just want to be cool outcasts and refuse to have friends) and that's not true for most of us. They completely turned it upside down. Instead of it being about the music, it's about who's makeup and clothes are better. I don't like how they've created a clique of goth snobs who won't let normies, let alone average goths into their "circle" because we aren't wearing some expensive name brand crap. They've become haute goth assholes with no ties to the actual music scene.
>Freya is just such an odd case. Part of me feels that she really is a goth as she really enjoys the music but on the other hand, I can't help but feel like it's all just a means for her to get D-list celebrity status. That it's all just a big show in order for her to get attention.You got that right. Few people in the real world could afford the lifestyle she has which is funded by her fans. She proudly admits that she's the one who started the Goth Reacts To hashtag on YT. She was into goth but now I think she likes having some fame for being this anti heroine for black sheep. If you boil it down, she's not doing anything positive for the goth community. If anything she's helping create the misinformation that we're railing against.
No. 451566
File: 1734116442326.jpg (109.89 KB, 736x736, 66067622de525e2edb608a6cdf6d3b…)
>>451452>Pinterest clothing guidesI've seen them, like picrel right? lol Even with that collage, I feel like even in picrel, it doesn't really accurately portray the style as it needs more flowy garments on it and at least some witchy style boots or pikes to show that those can help create the look as well. It's true that crushed velvet and velveteen are popular staples in terms of the fabric but flowy elements were also quite popular as well, really brings that sense of whimsy.
Though like you said, the zoomers see image boards like that and run with it and multiply it like crazy imitating these I hate to be blunt but poorly done guides.
No. 451568
File: 1734116639054.jpg (49.06 KB, 379x575, Sam Manson.jpg)
>>451561Unfortunately you're right, aside from them not featuring or referencing goth music, most of them were written poorly as well. I still remember cringing so much when I watched Danny Phantom and heard this quote by Sam kek.
No. 451571
File: 1734117237290.jpg (91.23 KB, 736x795, platforms.jpg)
>>451563>Though I feel like the skirt would look better in a black velvety or silky materialFound one. But she's wearing those platform type boots that really throws off the style. They just fit the cybergoth or Riverhead look instead.
>But yeah I agree that witch boots or pointy toe boots would really cement the look beautifully.Yep. Witch boots with her outfit would look better, I wish someone could give them tips or at least start a Pinterest board of how to mix and match so that it looks symmetrical.
No. 451620
>>451571Oh nice, yeah that skirt looks a lot more flattering but agree, those stomper platform boots just don't work with it and even when you try really hard to think of it as a meeting of elegant and tough, it just doesn't work, at least not for me. Swap those for some pointy toe boots and it's solid.
>Yep. Witch boots with her outfit would look better, I wish someone could give them tips or at least start a Pinterest board of how to mix and match so that it looks symmetrical.Looks like they need some input from the millennials and gen x'ers to help fill them in on how it's truly done.
No. 452022
File: 1734187622240.jpg (27.42 KB, 359x550, c0bd6950ebbb7e2d316f348dc233ee…)
>>451566Those are the sets I see on Pinterest that claim to be Romantic. What does a bug in resin have to do with romantic? And yeah, velvets are good but maybe a flowy duster or shawl would compliment the look. Or some antique jewelry, or vintage looking rosary. What passes for romantic these days is way off the mark. I wouldn't call it romantic, either.
No. 452024
File: 1734188403688.jpg (175.02 KB, 750x1125, 531530s.jpg)
>>451620>and even when you try really hard to think of it as a meeting of elegant and tough, it just doesn't work, at least not for me.Me either. Romantic isn't tough, I think that's why it doesn't work. Some goths in the 2000s wore chunky heel boots but they weren't platforms.
>Swap those for some pointy toe boots and it's solid.Even if they are a little narrow at the toe like picrel, it would still work. I think Zoomers just don't get how to put something together.
>Looks like they need some input from the millennials and gen x'ers to help fill them in on how it's truly done.I'm happy to help with that. Pinterest is mostly packed with ideas like
>>451566 and they need a board with examples of how to style a Romantic wardrobe.
No. 452025
File: 1734189239626.jpg (48.88 KB, 1280x720, Taratheandroid.jpg)
>>451858Kek, it sounds like a robot. This is unfortunate. The whole point of goth is DIY and to have the AI do it is like wearing 3D printed clothes.
No. 452028
File: 1734190086048.jpg (15.22 KB, 600x400, Sensatiano-DL12-1_min600.jpg)
>>452024>Even if they are a little narrow at the toe like picrel, it would still work. I think Zoomers just don't get how to put something together.Many don't even look outside "goff brands" for shoes. Picrel is popular design of folk dancing shoes in many European countries. In central Europe there are dozens of manufacturers handmaking them, I have seen them worn by goths like ummm… I can't even remember such case since times when neovictorian was all the rage 15 years ago. Handmade and designed to dance in them which means they have some quality to them. They are typically like 110 Euro for a new pair. Many "alt brands" cost more for lower quality.
No. 452030
File: 1734190569039.png (56.27 KB, 300x300, buty-kankan.png)
Cancan boots are made in even wider selection of European countries
No. 452033
File: 1734190958727.png (148.71 KB, 900x900, german_cancan_boots.png)
>>452030some example from German shop
No. 452042
>>452033I wear this style of shoes almost every day (mine have a taller heel and rise higher on the calf though) and people always love them. They’re so versatile and go with basically everything.
>>451558>Zoomers get their inspiration from curated "sets" on Pinterest which are created by other zoomers and they don't have that "lived in" kind of feeling with their looks, it seems like it's all thrown together with no rhyme or reason.This is how I feel about so much stuff these days but particularly in certain “alternative” subcultures. It’s just like a set costume that gets put on now by anyone who wants to buy it, it isn’t unusual, and the culture in young people’s internet spheres is actually to push each other into little boxes of the way you can do it. You’re not a “real goth” unless you wear some new ultra-refined rendition of 90s drag-inspired makeup, which most goths never worse. Stuff like that. I’ve also noticed that because of the lack of real-world social spaces, there’s this defensive need to constantly prove they’re really part of the “culture” by rattling off musical facts. When you go to goth shows there will be elders in black turtlenecks and trench coats and random funky black clothes just chilling, a bunch of millennials decked out in the most impressive stuff possible, and zoomers very loudly proclaiming that they study the history of goth albums every day on discord and know everything about the music and bla bla bla. Counterculture spheres did used to be gatekeepy but the pressure often felt like it was on you being organically part of things, like metalheads wanting indications that you actually regularly attend shows by different bands. Somehow the new attitudes also seem paired with the general Puritanism zoomers have too. You’re not really supposed to be daring or disturbing or to do anything shocking that makes people question their worldview. The whole sense that goth truly surprised and challenged and disturbed people’s religions and cultural norms and assumptions isn’t there, it’s just like, put on certain makeup and know a list of bands and you’ll be cool and meme-riddled guys will all find you sexy.
That said, obviously I still know plenty of older goths with fairly thriving organic local scenes who have clear personal styles and real artistic expression and who engage with the subculture very meaningfully, and I do think all of that is possible for younger goths to get into, but social media reliance is essentially a problem.
No. 452049
>>452046Kek yeah. I still have a bunch of older metalhead friends and it’s very clear they think you actually have to actively put in effort and show that you’re passionate and not just posturing for appearance points. On one hand it used to go way too far and occasionally still can, but on the other hand I honestly agree that subcultures should be about actual cultural engagement and interaction, and a very internal personal thing, and not about achieving the result of having people think you’re cool and different by slapping on a costume.
I think some people are finding a good balance in the goth scene by being actively welcoming to baby bats and helping guide them but also making it clear it’s not about buying an elaborate outfit and then walking around bragging about your goth cred, and it is about wanting to engage with the art and people because they mean something to you, exploring your local scene, bands and shows, and bringing your own genuine self into it. All of that is ultimately a lot more fulfilling and makes people stick around too.
No. 453186
>>451560>Man the teachers. I remember I had this one guy in my class who would always throw rolled up paper balls at me and my friend with his little group and the teacher would just give an uninterested "stop" and then he just stopped saying anything altogether.We used to live in a shot area and the teachers clearly didn't care about us or what we did. Then we moved to a nicer area and the teacher at that school gave me hell. That old bat sent me to the principals office because my makeup was "distracting" the class. That was major bullshit, she had her own ideas about kids wearing black and made problems for me. So before going to her class I had to wipe off my black lipstick. And because you could only get black lipstick during Halloween, I had to start using a different color. I failed her class and I didn't care. People think it's only kids bullying you, but they forget about the teachers who do it, too.
>They stopped messing with him as much after that but I remember finding it so ridiculous that he was the one who got suspended, it was so not fair.That's always how it goes. I'm sure the school saw black clothes and thought Delinquent. Some of us used to encourage the Satanist stereotype, because people were more scared of that. If they thought you'd axe murder them, they left you alone. It sucks to do that but it's better than getting you ass jumped. The goth dude in our group got called "faggot" several times for wearing black lipstick. Those times were brutal for the nonconforming, man.
>So that's why when I think of what I faced which was usually having paper or rocks thrown at me and being called things like "whore", I feel like he got it worse because at least I didn't get jumped and physically beat on.Yeah, to be a young Millennial meant having a thicker skin. If you couldn't handle insults you wouldn't make it through school. Whatever, they probably have boring lives compared to ours.
>For real. I mean, we goths and alternative kids thought black was cool but the overwhelming majority in society certainly didn't think that and would remind you at any turn they could.Oh, yeah. That teacher who narked on me for wearing black lipstick? She made a point of wearing a big gold cross necklace just so I could see it. I guess she thought it would scare me. Back then, during lunchtime the teachers had lunch at the same time as the students. When she sat at the teachers table I used to give her the death stare. And she would purposefully look my way and whisper to the other teachers about me. I'm just surprised when Zoomers think wearing black is cool. Wearing black then would give people permission to air their opinions about your soul without asking you if you wanted to hear it. It's so weird that goth is a fashion statement now.
No. 454715
File: 1734563218631.webp (170.69 KB, 1280x1280, 1p83o83o8.png)
I'd love to see some inspo for goth winter outfits! Discuss fave pieces, tips, etc
No. 455468
File: 1734641353537.jpg (48.56 KB, 736x736, e23baa75fbc80a8f4fd98003eb7da3…)
>>454715You got it. Incoming photo dump!
No. 455489
File: 1734642356449.jpg (44.3 KB, 640x789, 4bc4cbdad77f6324429c427e054a94…)
No. 455493
File: 1734642448939.jpg (36.12 KB, 600x600, 76a0f182b43b8b4a2dd101fe4862b7…)
No. 455496
File: 1734642476418.jpg (37.61 KB, 429x625, fa1c69d186d09d17092814f3b03903…)
No. 455498
File: 1734642541320.jpg (39.07 KB, 600x600, 55e75c906d895118d0622ee53b5693…)
No. 455499
File: 1734642605109.jpg (38.85 KB, 483x599, 5c5a4446b82ef34306e4bf956c1399…)
No. 455501
File: 1734642636643.jpg (61.37 KB, 640x763, 963b7b4e8ef7c1aaceff8331897ae3…)
No. 455507
File: 1734642944425.jpg (128.91 KB, 1080x1080, 926b49589989ca79410adfcdb9111d…)
>>454715Cool looking coats.
No. 455538
File: 1734644831518.jpg (261.57 KB, 794x1059, il_794xN.4724150555_m1bu.jpg)
>>454715Layers are key. Knee high socks in cotton or wool
Leg warmers/arm warmers
Fingerless gloves(short or long)
Scarves, snoods, ski masks
Thermal shirts or pants
Velvets and velour
Mix and match so you don't look like a marshmallow(don't wear 3 shirts, a sweater, scarf and hoodie at the same time)
Warm leggings or wear long socks with short socks on top
Wool skirts, jumpers or vests
If you don't want to wear thermal pants or warm leggings, try cotton tights and calf length boots
Hats, wool head wraps or scarves(picrel)
Coats, wool capes, leather jackets, or trenchcoats
Minimal or small jewelry that won't snag on your headscarf/coat
I don't wear face powder or foundation since it will rub off on said scarves or jacket. I play up my eyes with dark red or purple eyeshadow and blend to give the slightly dead look
Waterproof eyeliner, mascara and all day wear lipstick are my staples.
No. 455550
File: 1734646593960.png (1.73 MB, 1000x1616, R.png)
Layers
No. 455561
File: 1734647294925.jpg (328.72 KB, 1280x1920, 8235a19c2e05a318d54acc28539ab5…)
No. 455562
File: 1734647327083.jpg (48.81 KB, 1024x1024, punk-rave-men-s-gothic-asymmet…)
No. 455566
File: 1734647552088.jpg (57.55 KB, 474x808, 85b33c88e8c0ffddee7c0368b8b3fe…)
Kind of woodland witch, but it works for winter.
No. 459736
File: 1735239337379.jpg (27 KB, 500x368, BoxingDaria.jpg)
I have a bit of an ungoth confession that I feel may touch a bit on gatekeeping in my personal life and I just needed to get off my chest. So I'm currently 32 and I've been into the goth scene since I was about 16. Like many other goths here I'm sure, I did have a likeness for things that were dark before finding my way to goth music and falling in love with the sound and of course, I too went through the tail-end of the post-effect of the Columbine shooting with experiencing the bullying and demonizing that lots of alternative people experienced in the 2000s and all that.
The situation I face is that I am a fraternal twin and my sister has been somewhat recently been trying to get into goth and I personally have been feeling very weird about it. So for context, my sister and I have been opposites ever since we tried to carve out and be our own people after being forced to look the same in our early childhood (you know, parents dressing up their twins the same because it's cute and all that). When we started developing our own interests, she was the more naturally outgoing and socially extroverted where I was more of a bookworm and introverted. She was more into mainstream stuff and I was more into obscure and alternative and it was to a point that during the 2000s, she would sometimes mock my interests because it was "weird" and/or "depressing" and I remember for a time during our sophomore and half of our junior year, she pretended like we weren't related (I had just dyed my hair jet black and she dyed hers blonde so we didn't look that alike). That said, despite that moment in our lives, we do get along and had other things in common like being into gaming and some anime. I just gotta reiterate that there is no bad blood between us or anything like that, we have disagreements like any other pair of siblings have.
But sometime around last year in 2023, she started asking me about goth and trying to get band recommendations. I was a bit bewildered by this because she had never once expressed interest in goth at all but then I remembered that she is one of those people who is always on TikTok and she also does Twitch game streaming and part of me believed that the reason she has this interest in goth now is because of how goth has become a hot trend in recent years, especially on TikTok. And looking dark/alternative is not as antagonized like it was many years ago. Needless to say, I did give her a small handful recommendations. A few months later she starts dressing in all black and dyed her hair black and doing darker style makeup and making "goth" tiktoks. Granted she's buying all her dark clothing from Temu and has no interest in DIY but I digress.
And well, I must admit that I have been feeling very unsure and weird about this… I know that you shouldn't gatekeep a subculture and I'm not but I'm just being honest about my feelings and I feel a bit of an identity crisis. This isn't to say that goth defines me as a person because I have other interests but it has been a part of my life for such a long time and I must admit that it felt nice finding something that brought me so much joy and something that felt right for me all those years ago even with all the not so great stuff that came with it (the bullying, the snide comments, etc). And as a twin, it felt nice to have something for myself while my sister had her own thing and it differentiated us. This might be hard to understand if you don't have a twin.
But seeing what my sister is doing, it's just giving me flashbacks to when we were in elementary school where our mother would dress us the same and I admit that I do feel uncomfortable. And I know one can just look at this and say I should just embrace my sister's newfound identity and share it with her but we already share other aspects of our lives together and this is just something that I personally would've rather kept as my own separate thing as she had her own which was essentially "e-girl" as she was into all things hot on the internet.
I'm not going to be a dick and demand her to stop or anything like that but I decided that I just don't really want to engage in the topic of goth if she tries to bring it up because I just would rather keep that to myself and my handful of friends. If she wants to explore the scene, she can do that but this is just the one aspect of my life that I want to continue indulging in on my own.
Anyway sorry, this was more of a vent as I didn't have anyone to talk about this with and when I tried to find similar stories about this concerning twins, I couldn't find any.
No. 460259
>>460196Thanks anon. I was hesitating on whether I should talk about this but I just had to because it had been on my mind for months since I snooped her TikTok just to see what she was up to.
>It's weird that parents dress their children in the same clothes, as if they are one person.Yeah after going through that experience, I don't think parents realize how mentally taxing that can be for twins and/or triplets. It's cute when you're like a toddler but continuing to do that any older is not great.
>Having something that is your own is important. I think it feels like your sister is mirroring you but in a superficial way, and it's like she's borrowing your identity without asking. It really does feel that way, especially with how sudden and out of the blue it is. From what I've seen on her social media with her new "image", she's acting like she's always been into black everything and having this dark aesthetic when it really wasn't like that at all. At most she was into the scene style when we in high school but I wouldn't call the scene look a dark look, quite the opposite. And then she was a kandi kid and then e-girl. All these things being trendy which is on brand for her sortaspeak.
>Hopefully it's just a phase for her, unfortunately she's in it for the cool points and you worry people will say the same about you. Yeah I hope it's a phase too. I feel like it is because again, it was so sudden and when you remember that goth has now become a trend again on TikTok and Twitch and you have someone who hangs on those platforms all day or every other day, it makes a little more sense why you're seeing a lot of surface level interest in goth. I mean sure my sister asked for music recommendations but I can't help but feel that it's just so she can not be seen as a poser.And again, she's buying all her "goth stuff" from Temu…
Though I'm not too worried about people thinking I'm just a trender because those who know us know that I've been into goth and the macabre for a very long time. It's just uncomfortable because it does feel like my sister is trying to skinwalk me and I just liked it more when she was doing her own thing because it felt like we really did find our own identities after our conjoined origins.
>Since we're a music subculture I would try to focus on that and not what she's doing.Yeah I'm going to keep doing that. My love for the music has not waned at all despite this.
>I don't see the e-girl thing lasting much longer so hopefully you won't have to deal with that forever.Here's to hoping lol.
No. 460265
>>460253Me too. This whole "goth" fascination in the (internet) mainstream can't stick around forever. I mean some of us in the actual scene are already burnt out seeing the generic modern day trad goth look with the sharp and perfect makeup that a lot of the young ones have been doing the past few years and that's for us within the scene so you gotta wonder how long the internet trenders are going be interested as well.
My bet is maybe we will see a revival of scenekids or pop punk kids?
No. 460428
>>460308>It'll have to be a porn category that appeals to socially awkward moids.Ah okay lol. Yeah I think it'll be the anime milfs thing if I had to predict between the two, those aging e-girls more than likely won't want to become the (older) woman next door.
>>460404I can see that as well. Visual Kei was big (relatively in the niche alternative scene) of the 2000s and even though there have been new VKEI bands coming out in recent years, it doesn't really have the fanfare it did in the 2000s so it's definitely due for a (internet) mainstream cycle.
No. 460572
>>460556That's interesting that these newbies in the VKEI scene are actually -gasp-, listening to the music. Then again VKEI hasn't been horrifically muddled the way goth has been where you had people saying that VKEI is a "mindset" and the music probably is more accessible and easier on the ears since it's just heavy metal, alternative rock, and/or pop punk, sounds that are pretty well-known already compared to something like goth rock and post-punk that's more niche and unconventional.
>but then they come and shit up lolita commsHow do you mean anon?? I'm not really too familiar with Lolita conventions, I mostly only had a casual appreciation of the Lolita style so I'm not familiar with the customs within the scene and how they can be shit up.
No. 462253
>>460606Ah that makes sense. I actually had seen some people in the pest who claimed to be into lolita complain about the rules and how just like what happens with goth, some would say "lolita is whatever you want it to be" and you'd see some tacky looking coords and doing Ita and believing that it should be just as
valid.
No. 462301
>>462259Yeah I'm honestly surprised people haven't already done that with Visual Kei already claiming it's goth. I mean, people were saying that about the band Malcie Mizer but to be fair, Malice Mizer does have some goth style songs though it's not the majority of their work which is why I would never call them a goth band personally. But yeah, if anything, back in the day when it came to the darker style looking VKEI bands, you surprisingly were not seeing them being referred to as goth all that much.
I feel like the zoomers and older gen alpha will make that ignorant conflation though when VKEI goes through its cycle.
>Dark Mori KeiOh god I haven't heard that term in a long while. Same with "strega" lol. Yeah you're right that there were people calling that stuff goth, especially because of tumblr bloggers like Manic Moth and Psychara who really weren't goths at all. I liked the style granted but I don't miss the goth conflation.
No. 463798
Since there's talk about VKEI and Lolita and the shared shallow look at them like goth for some people, I figured this video would be fitting. since she does mention Pastel Got hand Soft Grunge and it transported me back to the early 2010s when I was getting into goth and grunge music respectively and why it was understandable why those two trends (because that's really all they were) were looked down upon by both the goth and grunge scenes since this was one of the biggest examples of clueless attention whoring young people bastardizing the terms and misappropriated them to fit their vapidness.
It was silly to me when she talked about "pastel goth" and mentioned how it was looked down upon by trad goths who thought they were nothing but posers and in the same analysis, she highlighted all the music artists that the aesthetic looked up to and celebrated with people like like Lana Del Rey, Melanie Martinez, and Marina & The Diamonds and not a spec of goth music whatsoever. So why would she be surprised and even annoyed that the goth scene did not embrace this tumblr aesthetic?
And the thing is, I thought the style was kinda cute but I just never called it "goth" anything and just stuck with phrases like "creepy cute" or "pastel edge" which was much more accurate since it had nothing to do with actual goth.
And same deal with "soft grunge". I remember when there was a huge divide with actual grunge fans vs these "soft grunge" girls who like "pastel goth" before it, were nothing but posers since they didn't even listen to grunge music. I remember even some people thinking bands like Nirvana and Guns N Roses were clothing labels lol. I just found it funny how she listed off all the music that was popular with "soft grunge" and how again, recycled Lana Del Ray, Marina and the Diamonds, Charlie XCX, and the 1975.
Like creepy cute ("pastel goth"), I thought some of the looks were neat but I cringed at the "grunge" label since it had fuck all to do with the grunge scene.
And in retrospect it's not surprising why these tumblr fads died out so fast because at the end of the day it was all about embracing vanity and taking pictures to post on your blog and show off and well, that will get old fairly quickly compared to a music-based scene that has music that keeps the scene alive.
No. 463804
File: 1735893764229.jpeg (188.4 KB, 732x960, IMG_2405.jpeg)
Anyone else remember Bogey’s?
No. 463908
File: 1735923013910.jpg (104.46 KB, 500x500, d6u47um-d17c3a9a-429a-4ede-b3d…)
>>462301>Oh god I haven't heard that term in a long while. Same with "strega" lol. Yeah you're right that there were people calling that stuff goth, especially because of tumblr bloggers like Manic Moth and Psychara who really weren't goths at all.That's basically what I wear in spring and summer so idk why they turned it into a niche fashion. Manic Moth and Psychara made people think that wearing horns and faun makeup was forest goth. It had nothing to do with goth, they were just doing fairy cosplay. Some really good music has come out of Scandinavia, but photo sets wearing mushrooms in your hair isn't one of them. I still don't get it how any weird dark idea can be labelled "goth".
-Do you like walking in the woods picking poisonous mushrooms? Congratulations, you're goth!
-Do you like sitting in your room all day plotting the end of the world?
You're goth to the core!
Seriously, they don't do this with punk or metal but they have to do it to us. If goth gets any kind of exposure, it's stuff like
>>449649 that makes people think Halloween had something to do the subculture.
No. 463910
File: 1735923194682.jpg (48.97 KB, 640x518, bbaff8ff04046b7d5b7ad1081f581a…)
No. 463957
>>463937AYRT and I agree, Angela is a awesome when it comes to goth youtube as she makes tons of videos about what the goth scene and music actually is. I also appreciate that she makes the distinction between industrial music and synth pop music not calling them "goth" as well. And even though she has calmed down a bit (by her admission), it's still good that when push comes to shove, she's not afraid to tell it like it is.
Toxic Tears & Jake Munro were never goth at all and were some of the biggest example of goth posers before Emily Boo came in and joined that trifecta. They never talked about music, Jake has even said that goth music sounds like shit and the people in the scene are douchebags. Kaya has said she prefers pop music and doesn't really listen to goth music as well so yeah, it's not surprising that their content reflected a poser take on goth by only focusing on unboxing videos and in Jake's case, just making videos about TikTok people.
ItsBlackFriday is a weird one as she actually does listen to the music or so it seems anyway compared to TT & Jake. But she too only made haul & makeup videos and didn't talk about the music. In the altcows thread people are saying she's just a goth for attention so she can be seen as a celebrity and based on how she acts, I'm kind of inclined to believe it.
So yeah, when it comes to the bigger "goth" youtubers, Angela is easily the best and most authentic one we have. It's pretty amazing that she was able to reach 100k subs for a channel that talks about goth content and not some goff QVC channel who makes their name by shilling cheap goff crap.
No. 463962
>>463908>That's basically what I wear in spring and summerNo lie, me too, though I tend to do Dark Mori inspired looks in the fall and winter, the layering is perfect for colder weather. But I agree that there's no need to call this goth since it has nothing to do with the scene. It's like these people don't realize that something like "romantic goth" (when it actually is a mix of goth with some romantic elements) came from goth because musicians in the goth scene were dressing like that on stage which inspired the look. With things like Dark Mori, Steampunk, and creepy cute ("pastel goth"), you didn't see musicians of goth bands dressing like this and that's why it's not accepted as a goth thing as it didn't come from goth music or a person who is into goth.
>I still don't get it how any weird dark idea can be labelled "goth".I think it's because they focus on how black is such a predominant color of choice in our scene and they believe that goth has the copyright (sortaspeak) on the color when it's not true, anyone remember beatniks? They wore a lot of black but you don't see people calling it goth.
>Seriously, they don't do this with punk or metal but they have to do it to us.Punk kinda gets it like
>>463936 with pop punk. There was also "seapunk" (it's mentioned in
>>463798 ) which was another tumblr style that had nothing to do with punk but you know, gotta be edgy.
No. 474988
>>463962>With things like Dark Mori, Steampunk, and creepy cute ("pastel goth"), you didn't see musicians of goth bands dressing like thisTbh I never got pastel goth. Never was a music scene and pastels with black clashes too much imho. I think Kerli might have spawned some of that look when she called her style Bubble Goth.
>SeapunkTrue. Not a music scene, just a fashion that should've been labelled mermaid aesthetic. Really glad these Tumblr fads died off. Remember when Tumblr was actually a cool site? It's lasted longer than MySpace and that's not fair because MS was fun for us Millennials.
Do any anons remember old sites you used to haunt that no longer exist?
No. 475288
File: 1737627142844.jpg (78.77 KB, 500x750, Kerli.jpg)
>>474988>I think Kerli might have spawned some of that look when she called her style Bubble Goth.Oh God Kerli, I forgot about her, been awhile since I heard that name but I do remember people calling her "Bubble Goth" as well and she probably did inspire "pastel goth" but it's just an example of early 2010s mislabeling of what goth was because Kerli's music was straight up dance pop.
>True. Not a music scene, just a fashion that should've been labelled mermaid aesthetic. Really glad these Tumblr fads died off.Yeah, I'm glad these fads died off as well. I mean I will admit that some of them looked cool (when calling them what they actually are) but it's not surprising that they didn't last long because a fashion trend is sooner to die off than a music-based scene that can continue to thrive, well for the most part (KEK at "crunkcore").
> Remember when Tumblr was actually a cool site? It's lasted longer than MySpace and that's not fair because MS was fun for us Millennials.Yeah Tumblr was a pretty chill place if you avoided the gender crap and pro-ana stuff. I mostly just followed a handful of goth blogs and fandom artists.
Also kek at the MySpace comment, it was definitely a wild time to be had with that site though honestly I was more active on VampireFreaks because MySpace was more of the scene style and I wasn't really into that stuff. I still remember when Jeffree Star was considered an icon on the site with his shitty music. VampireFreaks was more my speed because even though it wasn't really "goth" in hindsight, It was still a cool place for anyone into darkly-inclined things, I unironically miss it even though it did have some creeps on there.
No. 476997
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Does this count as goth to you or is this more raver/rivethead?
I still want to dress up like this, even after all these years
No. 477009
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Picrel is the goth friend you get drunk with and lives downtown/close to shows
>>476997I guess it's technically "cyber goth" but I like it better when they don't have the weird masks, yarn hair or fur boots. Or the stripey troon-appropriated arm band things. You could always dress up this way for fun nonna, at the very least people would be amused kek
No. 477026
>>476742I've seen this girl pop up on my feed as well but I got materialistic poser vibes from the video so I didn't watch it. But I agree, it's so fucking bizarre how so many of these gen z alt kids (majority women at that) are some kind of gendie. Like what the actual fuck is going on? I think it's a consequence of this generation z growing up on the internet and absorbing gender ideology through TikTok, Twitter, and/or Tumblr as middle school to high schoolers and thinking it makes them oh so quirky and unique.
It's really turning the goth scene into some sort of clown show tbh and worst is I've seen some millennials my age start calling themselves "nonbinary" which as far as I'm concerned, is just them trying desperately to not be seen as a "boomer" and out of style with the youth which is pathetic.
No. 477030
>>476997Absolutely not goth at all. I remember when this look was very popular in the 2000s as someone who was a teen myself during those times. They called it "cybergoth" but it really wasn't goth at all as these people were not listening to goth music and were listening to aggrotech, dark electro (also called "hellectro"), futurepop, and ebm. So if anything ,it was just a category of the industrial subculture that had overtaken a lot of the goth clubs at the time. Though I do remember some traditional rivetheads didn't like this look and thought it was stupid but still, these people were rooted in industrial dance music.
In saying that, if you like the style anon, you should dress it if you want to. You could probably find some stuff on depop and maybe even amazon, at least for the goggles anyway.
No. 477353
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>>477104What
>>477196 and
>>477197 said, EBM and industrial music are not goth, in fact industrial music came before goth music and it's origins lie within electronic while goth came from post-punk. And EBM came from industrial.
>>477223I'm sure location varied but there's still no denying that "cybergoth" was not an actual goth and was one of the first misappropriated styles that came from ravers who invaded goth clubs and loved dancing to futurepop and
>>477232I was pointing more towards bands like Die Krupps, VNV Nation (I know they were mostly known for futurepop but they did have some ebm songs that were popular on the dance floor), God Module, and XRX.
No. 478134
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>>477353>"cybergoth" was not an actual goth and was one of the first misappropriated styles that came from ravers who invaded goth clubsRight? I remember they showed up out of nowhere, suddenly there were these multicolored ravers on the dance floor. They made the clothing darker and called themselves gravers, but I was pretty pissed to see these fur boots and plastic hair in my club. They completely changed the music scene and the DJ started playing more electro shit because of them.
No. 478367
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Which bands do you consider honorary goth bands? Also which artists or famous people do you consider honorary goths?
No. 478391
>>478134AYRT and I was in high school during this time so I wasn't there in the beginning when these "gravers" invaded the clubs but I saw the leftovers of them in the late 2000s and I remember talking with older goths about these people and they shared their stories on how these people ruined the goth clubs and drove a lot of actual goths out of them as many of them did not want to listen to aggrotech and dark electro music. And just reading between the lines, this is why it's so obvious that these people were not goths and were just a second wave type of deal with the industrial music scene.
>I was pretty pissed to see these fur boots and plastic hair in my clubI will admit I actually did like the fur boots and had a black pair of them way back in the day lmao. But I'll give you the plastic hair, that was just a bit much lol.
No. 478392
>>478276There's no question that goth and industrial did share spaces together but based on what I heard and experienced, most of the once acclaimed goth clubs simply turned into industrial clubs because a lot of DJs would focus more on aggrotech, dark electro, and futurepop music. When I started going to my local goth club in 2008, I remember not hearing all that much goth music at all. At most you may have heard Sisters of Mercy, Rosetta Stone, Siouxsie, and the Mission but for the most part, the music was mostly Psyclon Nine, Alien Vampires, NIN, Blutengel, VNV Nation, Angelspit, and Combichrist. (And somewhat Ayria, only one local DJ in my area played her stuff lol).
No. 478746
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>>478394>When you say "honorary", are you talking about goth bands that aren't the big four or are you talking about non-goth bands that goths like?Is there an official big four? I’ve never heard of that phrase but I’m guessing it would be Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, early 80s The Cure, and Sisters of Mercy. Bands that were undeniably goth. I was talking about the latter, more for the reason of highlighting their contributions to the scene in terms of musical influence and fashion. I agree with the Winona Ryder thing, that’s one of the first that comes to mind. Apparently she still dressed like Lydia Deetz even after Beetlejuice. I would also add Peter Steele (no, not for Type O) but because he actually listened to bands like Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance. Still was a scrote that saw goth women as some archetypal object of objectification. Doc Hammer, co-creator of the Venture Bros. is for sure one. Not only did he make references to Nik Fiend and Bauhaus in the show, but he purchased John McGeoch’s guitar that he played while he was a Banshee.
he also had a band called Weep but I don’t recommend it I’d add Dave Vanian to the list,
inb4 “what about Phantasmagoria?” that’s a solid new wave album he’s married to Patricia Morrison. As for bands, I’ll just say that New Order is unofficial. They’ve had so much influence and try to go to the club without hearing a song by them or an artist that started out copying them.
my more unpopular opinion is that New Order is more influential than Joy Division I’ll add Ministry’s first album, With Sympathy as unofficial goth music. Al Jourgenson still gives me second-hand embarrassment for the direction he went in musically.
No. 479576
>>479148>she noticed how the goth scene has changed and how the recent lacks the "magical" feeling that it used to have and she thinks that a lot of the newer bands don't have that same vibe that older bands had, more or less that they are unimaginative and/or derivative.I get what she's saying being in my 30s as well. But I stand by what I've said in these threads. It's the internet and social media like Instagram and TikTok that killed the subculture. Was watching Angela's recent vid and the last one. She said as a kid they didn't have internet so they had to make their own fun. Sometimes they did stupid stuff eg. fartberry but the point I think she was making, is they had to get creative. In today's social media addiction, nobody is creative anymore. You see the same makeup styles, which pushes people to look better than the last person who did it. They don't do anything creative for the fun of it. They don't take risks, they don't think of new ideas. As for the music scene, the same applies. If the computer or A I. can do it for you, then there's no reason to be creative. Prior to internet really taking off the music, movies, cartoons and comics were much better than what they are now. People had to use their creativity or take inspiration from mythology(Sandman comics) or history. Think of the classic 70s and 80s horror movies. They remake them and it's shit but they can't figure out why. Today nothing is original, everything is a cheap copy of something before it and that's left the subculture suffering. These new kids might as well be cyborgs or the Boys From Brazil. Each a carbon copy of the other with little to no difference. When she said she didn't like drugs in the clubs. Well, it's been like that from the start. Punks were doing drugs and I'm sure early goths did too. I guess it's because she's getting older too, goth is no longer taboo or scary. Like when I was a teen in the 2000s it was looked down upon. Or people really thought you would axe murder them. At least we don't have that now and kids today won't kill you for wearing black. It's just a shame that goth is commercialized on social media. It was a niche thing and people put it online and gave it a platform when it should have stayed niche. We have too much exposure on us and then people don't get it and make it into what
they think it is. And it's usually interpreted in the wrong way or blown out of proportion.
No. 479585
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>>479148>she noticed how the goth scene has changed and how the recent lacks the "magical" feeling that it used to have and she thinks that a lot of the newer bands don't have that same vibe that older bands had, more or less that they are unimaginative and/or derivative. Yea, I get the same feeling. I feel that way with a lot of the bands that get shilled as the next big thing, such as Vision Video or Rosegarden Funeral Party. They don’t feel genuine or original. They aren’t trying to carve out a niche for themselves, they’re playing safe-sounding music that’s tried and true. The formula wasn’t exactly figured out when goth was first starting out, so there was plenty of variety within the genre. The generic ‘formula’ has been figured out now, so the themes present in the new music being produced is pretty on the nose. There’s a couple bands that genuinely sound like they’re from the 80s like Double Echo. I couldn’t tell you how many members are in Double Echo or what they look like, but I do know exactly what the male from Vision Video looks like and that he’s a firefighter. I can’t name a single Harsh Symmetry song if a gun were pointed to my head, but I know that picrel behind it is trying to skinwalk Daniel Ash. I think one of the reasons why there’s a lack of ‘magic’ is because social media makes it too intimate between listeners and musicians. Newer musicians speak directly to the audience with no middle man and some of the fun of the mystery is lost. Not to say that bands back then were faceless, but they weren’t making constant appearances in your life through video unless by sheer chance of MTV, which wasn’t often. Alien Sex Fiend were once on Beavis and Butthead. Music was the main connection between the artist and the fan. Another small part of it is that I notice that these bands dress in a lot of cheap-looking Shein clothing. You can tell that their outfits aren’t diy. Fashion shouldn’t be important but it’s something that impacts the image of the band. If they wear half-assed clothing, you’ll expect to hear half-assed music. Photography styles for shooting pictures of bands has changed, maybe in being nostalgic but it’s too polished for me. I’m not saying they have to hire Mick Mercer to take their photos, but maybe it’s best not to take photos that make you look indistinguishable from the newest tiktok pop punk industry plant. Even Anton Corbjin had a better sense of aesthetics in the 80s. I know this sounds like I think the 80s were superior but there’s a reason why these bands try hard to capture the sound of it.
No. 479667
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>>479576Ayrt and honestly you are absolutely right abut this. As much as it's painful to say because social media did help bring some people together which helped one, especially introverted people make friends they wouldn't have ever got to meet, it unfortunately has killed music subcultures as part of what made music subcultures so great was that they brought people together and encouraged creativity (the DIY grassroots) while listening to the niche genre of music you didn't hear much (if at all). It was not a popularity contest per say because back in the 80s, 90s, and 00s, goth was not seen in a positive light and you were seen as a freak and/or outcast which encouraged us to befriend and stick together (though it probably helps that politics were a lot simpler back then as well compared to now - hinting at gender ideology which has really rifted the goth & punk scenes-).
>Angela Benedict's videosI watched those too and I got it, people just lived in the moment more and were not concerned about what they looked like on social media because it was still in it's infancy before it really exploded in the 2010s. And thought I'm in my 30s and didn't get to live as a goth in the 90s as it came later, some of the values were still there in the 2000s as I'm sure you might know. I got into goth in 2007 and did use the internet a bit to kinda socialize but I remember being so excited and DIY'ing all kinds of stuff that I would show with my friend(s) and we'd swap ideas. And the music, this was still a bit during the Deathrock revival though by then it was starting to dwindle but the stuff felt fresh though I'm probably bias since I didn't experience the Deathrock scene of the 80s lol
>Prior to internet really taking off the music, movies, cartoons and comics were much better than what they are now. People had to use their creativity or take inspiration from mythology(Sandman comics) or history. This is sad but true. I mean every now and then something genuinely interesting and/or cool will come out but they're becoming less frequent over as the years go on. Something interesting I heard was that the reason why a lot of newer media isn't as interesting as it used to be is because the writers now are around our age (30s) or in their 40s and compared to the Baby Boomers & Gen X'ers, millennials didn't really go through as much worldly tragedy as our previous generations. And also that not many people read as much so they aren't getting inspired by old literature and instead are being inspired by the medias they/we watched as youths which can result in making things sound like copies or derivatives of the media they were inspired by.
>These new kids might as well be cyborgs or the Boys From Brazil. Each a carbon copy of the other with little to no differenceYou know that makes so much since. I scroll through Pinterest sometimes to look for inspiration for outfits and whenever I come across zxoomers with their very perfectly sharp crisp makeup paired with Shein/Romwe clothes and a plethora of accessories (like picrel) and it being from a TikTok video be it the actual video or a still, like what was discussed in the previous thread they all just end up blending in and just look like they're wearing costumes and you can tell they more than likely do not wear that out. It just gives performative vibes. Because then you sometimes see pics (on pinterest) of goths from the 80s and 9s0 and how the looks are not as flashy or in your face but they look more practical and comfortable compared to the zoomer style that's all about over the top excess. It's a less is more (80s / 90s) vs more is not enough (the zoomerS). Because I try to picture myself dressing myself like how the zoomers do and I can already feel the absolutely discomfort of it all.
>Goth is no longer taboo or scary. This for sure. I agree that it's nice that we don't have to deal with people yelling profanities at us (as much) and have random stuff thrown at us just for existing but I miss the obscurity big time and this is probably why the "magic" is borderline nonexistent. Because when you're seeing it all over social media from the "big tiddy goth GF" memes to even on Youtube with the YouTube Shorts and all the zoomer "goths" posting their vids that feel like they are just playing a character, it just gives this suffocating feeling. Goth and alternative music-based subcultures in general were never meant to be mainstream or have this much exposure. And it's unfortunate because with where we are in society, we may not be able to go back. It sucks because the 2000s was like the best middle ground where goth was still obscure and though we had social media, it hadn't completely dominated (first world) life just yet.
No. 479676
>>479585Ayrt and very nice observation, I get where you're coming from as well. I personally like a few songs from Vision Video and Rosegarden Funeral Party but do I think they're mystifying and unique? Not really. Just serviceable for when you want to listen to something that's newer, at least imo. I've also enjoyed some Neila Invo as well. But yeah, the goth formula has been laid out which makes it easier to go with a safer sound with not much experimentation to the mix. I mean you know it's bad when AI has now caught on and people are making AI goth songs (bleh…).
>The image of the bandThat's a fair point as well. Fashion isn't everything but there's no denying that an interesting look can definiely help immerse the listener but the look has to be DIY with some sort of inspiration. Siouxsie had an incredible style that was so diverse though it helped that she had great stage presence no doubt from her days from punk that translated into when she played around with goth. Or a band like London After Midnight, I mean John Koviak with his striking self and how they just looked so ethereal (for the most part lol). Or Carl McCoy of Fields of The Nephilim with his western/cowboy aesthetic, like holy cow that was a unique look. And this one is more personal opinion but I thought goth album covers looked a lot cooler in the 80s-2000s where some of them would have pictures of gothic architect cor going very abstract compared to now which is a bit more modern. Not that this is a big deal because depending on the person, you may not be buying physical albums anymore but just something I found interest in.
>Lack of intimacy with the musicI agree with you breakdown as well. We see too much of the band and though it's sweet that some of them can be pretty social with fans who comment on their YouTube, it does kinda weaken the mystery where back then like you mentioned, at most we would only learn about the musicians behind the music when they got interviewed on TV, magazines, or cute little (geocities) internet blogs. Aside from that, you had this sense of mystery what these musicians were like and what they thought and that curiosity kept you interested.
No. 479770
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>>479743>Ankh BeltMan that fucking belt. Never did I think that a belt that seemed cool in concept would be one that I ended up loathing. I think it's because so many people flocked to it and you tend to see it a lot to the point that it's not cool or unique to look at and you're better off making your own unique chain belt lol.
No. 479771
>>479750Well speaking for myself, the way I determined if a song as goth sounding was the style of guitar used. If a song is just comprised as synths and no guitar, I wouldn't it consider it "goth" because goth has a specific guitar sound to it even in the darkwave stuff like Clan of Xymox and some songs from The Frozen Autumn (not all their songs are darkwave as they do a lot of synth pop). Twin Tribes definitely passes that vibe for me while Lebanon Hanover, at least the songs I've heard from them sounds more like straight up post-punk with the prominent deep bass.
>The Birthday PartyI've seen this debate as well and I don't really consider them goth neither, I consider them dark post-punk because of the guitar trait I mentioned prior. And The Batcave as prominent as it was for the goth scene's origins, it did have some non-goth bands play the venue like Soft Cell whom are a synth pop/new wave band.
No. 479773
>>479738Well to be fair, the woman in the video had gone through quite a lot in her personal life as she was in a terribly
abusive relationship and she tried to live in New York City for awhile only for things to just not work out. This to say, all that can take an understandable emotional toll and maybe that is what is making her feel even more disenfranchised with the scene t othe point that the things that were bothering her only got extrapolated. But you're right, we just gotta try to make the magic happen ourselves however we can. I can sometimes feel the magic myself when I'm driving and I pop in one of my favorite goth albums and just can't help but sing along or hum along and I can feel that happy feeling inside even if they are songs I've heard for so long. And yeah, I also like to take inspiration from songs and use that to inspire outfits as well.
No. 479775
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>>479770Wow. That literally looks like a costume. No hate to her because I’m sure it was expensive. But it’s like she checked every single box of the bastardized trad goth outfit. Ankh belt. Ankh necklace. Bat rosary. Fake distressed flowy sleeves that look like they’re cut zig-zag. Haircut that wasn’t meant for a bat’s nest. Vinyl boots from AliExpress. Props for her for achieving that. Not even going to cover the makeup that absolutely not a single person in the 80s wore.
>>479771>I consider them dark post-punk because of the guitar trait I mentioned prior.Fair enough, not every band with the teased mullet is goth. Einstürzende Neubauten and Skinny Puppy had the same that many goths sported.
Picrel is malloryheart, I’ve been loving her outfits, they feel genuine and she makes diy vids. She gives me hope that people can still continue the integrity that has been lacking in the subculture’s fashion.
No. 479782
>>479775>Wow. That literally looks like a costume. No hate to her because I’m sure it was expensive. But it’s like she checked every single box of the bastardized trad goth outfit. Ankh belt. Ankh necklace. Bat rosary. Fake distressed flowy sleeves that look like they’re cut zig-zag. Haircut that wasn’t meant for a bat’s nest. Vinyl boots from AliExpress. Props for her for achieving that. Not even going to cover the makeup that absolutely not a single person in the 80s wore. Yep and you see a ton of these kids sporting this OTT look on Pinterest and TikTok and like mentioned earlier, it comes off more costumey than a genuine look one would be comfortable wearing in their day to day life. But even for a club look, it just looks a little too on the nose. Also I'm pretty sure the hair is a wig that was turned into a bat's nest which is cool from a craftsman perspective but just like the ankh belt, so many people do it now to the point it can make looks look samey.
>Fair enough, not every band with the teased mullet is goth.For sure. I mean lots of new wave bands had men and women with the teased muillet, it was just a popular hairstyle at the time.
>MalloryHeartOh wow that is actually a pretty neat outfit. The right balance and looks comfortable to wear in the Fall-time. I'll definitely check out more of her looks because it does seem like she has a keen eye for coordination.
No. 479809
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>>479770You can definitely tell when someone put their outfit together versus shopping Temu. I'm gonna call it what it is: a costume. I'm sure people like
>>479667 show up at clubs wearing that, not to enjoy the music but to Instagram about it. They're so busy taking selfies that they don't enjoy the music. Go thrifting. Don't be afraid to cut up your clothes, buy some Rit or Dylon, get a needle and thread and go all out. That's how you recapture the magic of the subculture.
No. 479868
>>479775Lol she literally said what I've been saying. Ty for the recommendation.
No. 479871
>>479868Literally this. Thank goodness for Mallory, we need more people like her tell it like it is. Goth subculture is not about buying from Romwe and Shein. DIY is the main thing most Zoomers can't grasp.
No. 479915
>>479809I haven't been to a goth club in a good while because life stuff but I remember sometimes when I would go, I would see younger people (mostly girls, just gonna be honest) be in small groups taking selfies and recording each other dancing and in hindsight, I feel like these are the kind of people you're talking about lol I mean it's okay to take a photo and maybe a little video of the moment because it's pretty normal to do that these days but not when you're doing it for like half your night out because at that point it really does give the impression that they're just there to post for likes on their Instagram or TikTok.
And I agree, buying your "goth outfit" off of Temu, Shein, or even Killstar and not actually getting creative and building your look from thrifting and some DIYing is what kills the magic.
No. 479917
>>479868Damn she just really laid it out and we love to see it. Because she's right, you don't need to be a seamstress to make some good outfits. Personally I don't know how to sew and I just rely on finding interesting pieces and thinking of ways to pair them. The most I DIY are just jewelry and it's enough for me. It's just so funny because the "what brand is this?" question, I'm sure we've all got at one point lol
I salute this girl, kudos to her blunt honesty.
No. 479959
File: 1738620966656.jpg (252.44 KB, 1280x1280, LipService.jpg)
>>479917I took a few sewing classes in my 20s and really wish they were available when I was a teen. We had to rely on Hot Topic or mall clothes, and just add enough layers so you didn't recognize it, lol. When you buy second hand, you expect the clothes to have holes or need repairs. I used to be friends with crust punks and even the males could do basic mending. In my sewing class I learned to sew zippers and seams. That really helps if the garment is worn out. Usually I don't buy lace items second hand because they're frayed and the elastic is shot. But it's cool to DIY because it gives me something to do, and I like taking inspiration from 90s stuff like Begotten dresses by Dilek Atasu and Lip Service (when they were good).
No. 480141
>>479959That cool. I really need to learn how to sew even if it's just the simple things because I know it'll come in handy like it has been for you. When I'm thrifting I just try to look for things that aren't too worn down or have holes in it and I'm usually lucky enough though I know that if I learn how to sew, buying a destroyed piece won't be a waste of money lol.
>Begotten & Lip ServiceOh man that takes me back to the early 2000s when I used to see those dresses n catalogs and would tell myself one day I would get one and sadly that day never came and now my closet is so full that I don't think I'd have room for a dress by them lol.
No. 480874
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>>480141Same. I always thought one day I'll be able to afford that dress. The day never came but now I can make something similar. With those Lip Service dresses, you could find a black velvet dress, cut it down the middle and add some different material. Besides, I've seen people selling Lip Service and Begotten dresses online and it's painful. $350 is just criminal and isn't worth it. The medieval style dresses aren't that hard to make. I found a short velvet dress at the thrift shop. I've got some purple fabric and will make it like picrel. Even using a basic bell sleeve pattern can give similar results. Like
>>479868 said being goth isn't expensive.
No. 480883
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>>479667>it unfortunately has killed music subcultures as part of what made music subcultures so great was that they brought people together and encouraged creativity (the DIY grassroots) while listening to the niche genre of music you didn't hear much (if at all).It did. I think it would've been fine to use social media for announcing new bands or sharing DIY/hacks. But it completely took over the exclusive side of goth and now we have to fight to defend the essence of goth. Today goth is downgraded to expensive clothes and corpse makeup.
>I got into goth in 2007 and did use the internet a bit to kinda socialize but I remember being so excited and DIY'ing all kinds of stuff that I would show with my friend(s) and we'd swap ideas. And the music, this was still a bit during the Deathrock revival though by then it was starting to dwindle but the stuff felt fresh though I'm probably biasYeah I got into goth at the beginning of 2006. It was still frowned upon and we did use the internet for DIY ideas or sharing stuff. I remember goths from the 80s and 90s were using online forums to school the babybats(since music changed and what was being marketed as goth wasn't). They were happy to share tons of things like cheap ways to style hair(one suggested using Elmer's glue mixed with water), how to stop lipstick smudging, making black nail polish last longer(she said adding nail polish remover to it) etc. I miss those days because the advice was constructive and not focused on buying goth brands. They taught us how to thrift and make the most of what you have.
>And also that not many people read as much so they aren't getting inspired by old literature and instead are being inspired by the medias they/we watched as youths which can result in making things sound like copies or derivatives of the media they were inspired by. That makes sense. I think the Jason franchise started from an urban legend then they made a movie about it. If people don't read anymore that's probably why they don't have new ideas.
>Because then you sometimes see pics (on pinterest) of goths from the 80s and 9s0 and how the looks are not as flashy or in your face but they look more practical and comfortable compared to the zoomer style that's all about over the top excess. It's a less is more (80s / 90s) vs more is not enough (the zoomerS).Exactly. Pics from 80s-90s you could tell they put effort into their clothes. If they couldn't sew, they added layers or mixed fabric textures. You had the basic look(teased hair and necklaces) but it's the
way they put it all together. With Zoomers they don't know how to do that. They think "To be goth I have to wear that dress with this jewelry and stencil makeup". That's not the point. The point is being inspired by the music or maybe you like the band member's clothes or the way the music makes you feel. The point is
how you interpret the music/lifestyle
>Goth and alternative music-based subcultures in general were never meant to be mainstream or have this much exposure.This. That was the whole thing with alt music. It was alternative because they did what they wanted, not what they were told to do. Punk was about rebellion. Rebelling against the system, against pushovers and people following the rules. Punk wanted to tear that down and make their own rules. That's why it was unpopular because the generation before them were conformists and happy to be that way. Punks saw the dangers of being docile donkeys because it would come back to bite you in the ass. With goth it was similar; we can DIY and use our creativity. We don't need your corporate bullshit and we will quietly walk away from it. Eventually society tares them down and forces them to conform(or be a beggar on the street). Now we have Zoomers, the product of that conformity and when they try to be alt it doesn't work. They don't have any concept of why it's alt. They have credit cards at 10 years old. They tap those cards and buy goth costumes so they can pretend to be goth, completely missing the point of
why we are goth.
>And it's unfortunate because with where we are in society, we may not be able to go back. It sucks because the 2000s was like the best middle ground where goth was still obscure and though we had social media, it hadn't completely dominated (first world) life just yet.Yeah, we weren't using it for everything. People still read road maps and could do math in their head. Internet is used for everything, new stuff becomes old quickly and people don't appreciate the time it takes to do things. It's a sad situation, but just like those Trads used forums to help us starting out, we can do our best to help newbies and preserve what's left of our subculture.
No. 481297
File: 1738874120820.jpg (29.46 KB, 298x600, b7a6570734a5bda50f4d7197335052…)
>>480883>But it completely took over the exclusive side of goth and now we have to fight to defend the essence of goth. Today goth is downgraded to expensive clothes and corpse makeup.Right and you so much as say that goth is not about that stuff, you get called an elitist or in recent years, a "boomer" to those of us in our 30s and 40s.
>I remember goths from the 80s and 90s were using online forums to school the babybats(since music changed and what was being marketed as goth wasn't).Yeah I remember actually seeing some trads on a few VampireFreaks forums. They would help point out some bands to check out, I remember meeting this one woman there who basically helped me understand what goth music actually was. Some of them were snarky but I mostly only saw them act that way to the people who were insistent on saying bands like Evanescence, Manson, NIN, Nightwish, etc were goth. Most of the time they were pleasant and helpful. I also got the advice of shopping in underwear sections of thrift shops to find lacey night robes which blew my young mind because younger me didn't know where to find them and the solution was that simple lol.
>If people don't read anymore that's probably why they don't have new ideas.Yeah and it only seems to be getting worse as the old greats are starting to retire and/or pass away which is leaving us with this void. I was so sad to hear of David Lynch's passing because he had such an interest (imo) of film making that was inspired by noir cinema and literature.
>They think "To be goth I have to wear that dress wNow we have Zoomers, the product of that conformity and when they try to be alt it doesn't work. They don't have any concept of why it's alt.ith this jewelry and stencil makeup". That's not the point.Right, they treat it like a blueprint guide which is what kills the creativity. They don't allow themselves to just go with the flow and let the music take them sortaspeak. I mean sure, those of us in the scene who've been around a lot longer have done some looks in our past that we think looks like a mess in recent times but it's the experimentation that makes it fun and can create memories. If you're starting out the gate with the "perfect" guide, that just takes all the fun out of it and it's why so many of these zoomers going for that cookie-cutter goth look, they end up looking so dull and with no spark.
>Now we have Zoomers, the product of that conformity and when they try to be alt it doesn't work. They don't have any concept of why it's alt.Yeah and it probably doesn't help that a lot of the zoomers aged into a world where alt was not as hated on as much which can give them a bit of a confusion when they hear about how being alt back in the 80s, 90s, and early to mid 00s was not something a lot of people embraced which further emphasized why community was so strong back then. They just can't fathom that and it's not really their fault because some experiences you just have to live through to fully understand.
>Internet is used for everything, new stuff becomes old quickly and people don't appreciate the time it takes to do things.Sad but true, especially for binge culture. Binging shows and music can especially make things die quicker. Whenever I'm watching a new show, I will not binge and take my time sticking with 2 episodes every Saturday lol. My friends unfortunately fell into binge culture and will finish a show in one or two days and they playfully tease me about taking too long to finish a show but I see how binging has affected them because they'll quickly move on from a show after a week or two. This all to say that it feels like zoomers are in a way binging goth and/or alt scenes. They get super super invested in it and follow the aforementioned blueprint and then grow bored of it in like a couple of months and then move onto something else.
>but just like those Trads used forums to help us starting out, we can do our best to help newbies and preserve what's left of our subculture.Yeah I do try my best to help the newbies when I can and it does feel nice to help guide provided the young'in is willing to listen.
>>480958>>481198I got into goth in 2007 and I remember seeing the term "Babybat" used but not "eldergoth" but it was mostly only said on the internet, in my case it was the VampireFreaks website back when it had a social media & forum alongside it. So at least "Babybat" was used in the 2000s but I don't think it was in the 80s or 90s.
No. 482811
>>482665Primary school in the '70s: drilling, sawing wood, hammering nails
Primary school in the '90s: gluing cardboard.
No. 482962
File: 1739147430476.jpg (88.33 KB, 570x800, il_570xN.491257148_79eb.jpg)
>Right and you so much as say that goth is not about that stuff, you get called an elitist or in recent years, a "boomer" to those of us in our 30s and 40s.
And all we're trying to do is educate the younger generation and they get an attitude over it. They make videos about us being "elitists" and find other Zoomers to agree with them on it. I wish they'd been around in the 2000s because the trads didn't tolerate tantrums from us. If we had the attitude Zoomers have, the trads would've called us posers or not wasted their time.
>I also got the advice of shopping in underwear sections of thrift shops to find lacey night robes which blew my young mind because younger me didn't know where to find them and the solution was that simple lol.
Yeah, I remember being really upset because I couldn't find any corsets and the ones online were expensive. A lady who was goth in the 90s told me to go to Victoria's Secret and that changed my world. She was the one who told me about buying nightgowns in thrift shops. She said her and her friends used to buy those lacey wire corsets(picrel) and either sew fabric on top of it, or remove the wires and make a new one.
>I was so sad to hear of David Lynch's passing
I couldn't believe it when I heard that. All the original thinkers in movie making are passing. When they die, so does their art and that's scary.
>If you're starting out the gate with the "perfect" guide, that just takes all the fun out of it and it's why so many of these zoomers going for that cookie-cutter goth look, they end up looking so dull and with no spark.
Yeah and I think they care about what other people think. If their friends say "omigod, you're not wearing that are you?" they kinda fall into thinking a certain way so they don't get criticized. I mean, the thing with goth is being creative, and we didn't give a shit if people didn't like it. Zoomers are scared of getting laughed at for being different and they go for the "safe" option, which is some cookie cutter stenciled look made popular by an influencer.
>They just can't fathom that and it's not really their fault because some experiences you just have to live through to fully understand.
True. Unfortunately that's what is making goth slowly die out. The fact that Zoomers aren't creating that tight knit community and treating goth like a mood or a phase. Rarely do they go to actual clubs, many of them are internet goths and not in it for the social or lifestyle aspect. You don't even have to wear black, you can just like the music and that's enough. But many of them don't listen to it, they just pick a few well known hits by The Cure and that's as far as their interest goes.
>This all to say that it feels like zoomers are in a way binging goth and/or alt scenes. They get super super invested in it and follow the aforementioned blueprint and then grow bored of it in like a couple of months and then move onto something else.
Literally this. Most of them have a superficial attitude towards goth like it's a new toy. They treat the subculture like a fad, all their friends try it on for size and then outgrow it when they haven't even grown into it.
>Yeah I do try my best to help the newbies when I can and it does feel nice to help guide provided the young'in is willing to listen.
Here's hoping they are willing to listen. Goth has a lot to offer in terms of thoughtful music lyrics and interesting people. Even if they stop wearing black, they have a chance to make real friends. Zoomers don't seem to have meaningful relationships because everything is online and barely face to face. Real interactions are there if they want it. I think because they grew up with internet they don't know how to socialize. If they understood goth is about music and like minds sticking together, they wouldn't be scared to mingle with real life people.
No. 483714
>>483687Those skills are seen more as luxury hobbies these days, at least in my country (or part of the country? It may be different for people in large cities). Like if you have enough space to have your own woodshop and do woodwork, you have to be economically well off and have the free time to learn it. Same with sewing.
>>483522 I agree that school funding plays a big role. My school structured classes so that if you took honors classes or college credit classes in highschool, it was impossible to take any classes like art, woodshop, sewing, etc because they'd be at the same time and the school earns more funding if they have more kids doing "accelerated" classes and getting high grades and doing well on exams, so they push more for kids to take classes like Honors British Literature or Business Management instead of classes that encourage DIY and creativity. There might also be some liability issues with things like woodshop injuries that they were afraid of too.
No. 483877
>>483565Sorry I was not clearer. By generational distinction I meant it is not a cultural choice made broadly within their social peer grouping. For example a trend like gaming, skateboarding or milk slamming. This is something somewhat imposed on them by those in control of what they can learn within institutions provided by their societies. Which is something you seem to loosely agree with due to the infrastructure you are describing. Again, sorry for not using a better descriptor or explanation.
I do wonder what proactive fostering can be done to inspire people to carry on core staples of the subculture. I've tried to arrange picnic crafting get togethers but no one seems interested. The idea came from people asking me where I got stuff and the answer being it's cardboard, glue and fabric aka DIY. People seem interested but not enough to take some step outside of maybe buying it or maybe afraid to try. Yes, someone said they were too afraid to make a mistake. I just want people to have fun making things their own, going out and feeling like they have a cozy community. I don't know how to encourage it though.
No. 484741
File: 1739489023972.jpg (38.62 KB, 696x365, Endstation-Sclesien-U-Bahn-Lin…)
year: 1986
location: Berlin metro, Germany
No. 484746
File: 1739489496490.jpeg (49.56 KB, 480x650, postcard from 1984.jpeg)
photo from 1984
No. 484751
File: 1739489750452.webp (38.93 KB, 400x602, Bee and Sue at the Wag Club,19…)
Bee and Sue at the Wag Club,1983
No. 484770
File: 1739490888425.webp (53.31 KB, 400x629, image.webp)
Tilo Wolf, if I recognize correctly
No. 484774
File: 1739491013224.jpeg (5.37 KB, 182x276, DrMu.jpeg)
No. 484778
File: 1739491130465.jpg (14.65 KB, 236x300, 80s.jpg)
So, hmmm. What exactly was the point about makeup that one of nonas was trying to make?
No. 484779
File: 1739491370589.jpg (57.5 KB, 500x672, grainy.jpg)
As I'm not exactly sure
No. 484957
>>482962>They make videos about us being "elitists" and find other Zoomers to agree with them on it. I wish they'd been around in the 2000s because the trads didn't tolerate tantrums from us. If we had the attitude Zoomers have, the trads would've called us posers or not wasted their time.Oh for sure, these zoomers who are trying to use goth and/or punk as their little costume for cool points wouldn't have lasted a day if they lived in the 90s and 00s. They get off easy because us millennials are trying to be a little more warmly welcoming by helping them out compared to how a lot of us had to go in blind because of lack of resources back in that time.
>She said her and her friends used to buy those lacey wire corsets(picrel) and either sew fabric on top of it, or remove the wires and make a new one.Very nice and that is lovely corset. That actually reminds of this one neat black lacey bustier corset I found in a thrift shop that was one of my favorite finds. I ended up selling it years later but boy it was so fun to just head out on a Saturday morning or afternoon hitting the thrift shops.
>I couldn't believe it when I heard that. All the original thinkers in movie making are passing. When they die, so does their art and that's scary.They really are and it feels so depressing that we're going to see more of them dropping like flies as we head for 2030.
>Yeah and I think they care about what other people think. If their friends say "omigod, you're not wearing that are you?" they kinda fall into thinking a certain way so they don't get criticized. I mean, the thing with goth is being creative, and we didn't give a shit if people didn't like it. Zoomers are scared of getting laughed at for being different and they go for the "safe" option, which is some cookie cutter stenciled look made popular by an influencer.That makes a lot of sense and it's unfortunate but that is why the backbone is so important to have when you're alternative. Again they have it a little easier since in more populated places the alternative look is a lot more tolerated than back then but back then, you really had to have the gumption to rock with it because you really were going against the grain and the reception wasn't always going to be positive.
>True. Unfortunately that's what is making goth slowly die out. The fact that Zoomers aren't creating that tight knit community and treating goth like a mood or a phase. Rarely do they go to actual clubs, many of them are internet goths and not in it for the social or lifestyle aspect. You don't even have to wear black, you can just like the music and that's enough. But many of them don't listen to it, they just pick a few well known hits by The Cure and that's as far as their interest goes.Just hearing this made me remember a video of what Angela Benedict talked about a few yeas ago with how back in the day there would be house parties that alternative people would throw to create that sense of community. I never attended any myself because that wasn't really a thing where I lived but hearing that these were a thing is so cool and I think zoomers could definitely benefit from something like that. They don't need alcholhol, just some snacks, a music player with some goth/darkwave/deathrock CDs, and some extra space to mingle and dance in.
>Literally this. Most of them have a superficial attitude towards goth like it's a new toy. They treat the subculture like a fad, all their friends try it on for size and then outgrow it when they haven't even grown into it.Exactly and fads are not built to last.
>Here's hoping they are willing to listen. Goth has a lot to offer in terms of thoughtful music lyrics and interesting people. Even if they stop wearing black, they have a chance to make real friends. Zoomers don't seem to have meaningful relationships because everything is online and barely face to face. Real interactions are there if they want it. I think because they grew up with internet they don't know how to socialize. If they understood goth is about music and like minds sticking together, they wouldn't be scared to mingle with real life people.I agree, that's why the house parties would definitely be a step in the right direction not just for zoomers but even for us millennials who have gotten caught up with our personal lives and don't feel like going to a club or bar.
No. 485194
File: 1739565242070.jpg (48.96 KB, 448x604, 24aadc3ff0677a20bd526a780adcf4…)
So have any of you had to deal with guys fetishizing you because of the whole "Goth GFM" meme that has been circulating for a few years now? It's annoying how this is a thing even though it's nothing really new because there have been men who always fetishized goth women even back in the day but I think the whole "GF" is just a more manipulative way instead of outright sexualizing on the spot like men used to do.
I haven't dealt with it too much personally but to be honest, I don't go out much. But I definitely got it when I used to have Instagram and it would perplex me because my style looks nothing like an e-girl or is overtly sexualized but you know how it goes, these dudes see a woman in all black and dark makeup and will slap that fetishization onto you goth or not (especially the "not" with the women who play into this fetish and aren't actual goths).
No. 486639
File: 1739800607509.jpg (56.98 KB, 720x960, a21a3403bca8ce139b23e2612e0bcf…)
>>484957>They get off easy because us millennials are trying to be a little more warmly welcoming by helping them out compared to how a lot of us had to go in blind because of lack of resources back in that time.Yeah I think that's on us for being kinda lenient with them. I remember Trads were strict with me for not knowing the difference between goth and post punk. Unless there was a strong goth club in your area, you didn't have much support getting into it.
>They really are and it feels so depressing that we're going to see more of them dropping like flies as we head for 2030.That is depressing. I just watched Brick(2005) for the first time. The writer was inspired by Dashiell Hammett when he did the script. If this generation doesn't read books, they aren't going to make anything worth watching. We are heading towards Idiocracy with these recent mind numbing movies.
>but back then, you really had to have the gumption to rock with it because you really were going against the grain and the reception wasn't always going to be positive. Exactly. If you wanted to be any kind of alternative you would expect to be criticized. By family, extended family, peers, teachers and you would have to tone down the look or stop being alt because you couldn't get a job. Unless you worked at Hot Topic or an adult shop, the dyed hair and facial piercings had to go. Zoomers just don't get how hard it was because you become goth and you were basically doing it alone if you didn't have friends.
>Just hearing this made me remember a video of what Angela Benedict talked about a few yeas ago with how back in the day there would be house parties that alternative people would throw to create that sense of community.I heard about Angela thru the alt boards and haven't seen all her videos. I think I brought up house parties in the last thread. But yeah, we did those. It was mostly alt music because there were only 2 goths including myself. Plus it wasn't our house but it was good to have a party and connect with people. I don't know if Zoomers would be into that and with the way people are now, house parties are something Trads and Millennials would bring back.
>They don't need alcohol, just some snacks, a music player with some goth/darkwave/deathrock CDs, and some extra space to mingle and dance in.That sounds like my kind of party. I was always the snack person so reading that makes me feel nostalgic about going to 711 and buying Funyuns and Bugles for our get together.
>I agree, that's why the house parties would definitely be a step in the right direction not just for zoomers but even for us millennials who have gotten caught up with our personal livesI second that. I live in the city now, so it would be challenging to find someone with a house. The thing that really gets me is back then people actually made an effort to find venues or places to party. Nowadays people don't want to travel more than a mile to do something. I wish there were more people like Angela who would be like Hey, we're going to have a house/street party so let's make it happen.
No. 486736
>>486639not a goth, but house parties and house shows are still kind of a thing but obviously it's who you know IRL, and a lot of zoomers just don't have those IRL connections.
zoomers in general don't party like millennials and losers anyway, apparently they just wallflower and scroll on their phones, or too drugged up to properly connect with people