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No. 67389
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>2017
>Still identifying as a feminist
No. 67408
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i just find it weird that people are supporting literal straight men who put on makeup and shitting on lesbians who don't like dick
it's amazing how you can manipulate people who just want to "be on the right side of history", just make a bunch of tumblr posts about how terfs are literally murdering people, and everyone will hate them!
i really hope this is just a trend
No. 67418
>>67391Self purging is a bad trait of Liberals and liberalism overlaps with feminism a lot. We already had radfem and libfem and now we're gonna split again over some bathrooms and Tumblr posts.
I'm looking at this from the perspective of American liberal that really wishes we could get our shit together since the right has steamrolled us in elections for the last decade.
No. 67421
>>67419https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB25/id/1548615Well, while you do that, bills like this are sneaking through state legislatures. Summary of that is Doctors can lie to you or simply not tell you about complications with pregnancy and avoid liability. This bill is there to provide cover for doctors who do so to avoid you deciding to get an abortion.
And yeah, that's Texas, but since 2008, more than a 1000 political offices have flipped from left to right, and these kinds of bills are getting disgustingly common again.
Of course, if you're not American maybe that bathroom thing is relatively more important on the feminism battlefield, and then my opinion is invalid. I just don't think this worth making a whole new acronym movement, based on what's happening in my country right now.
No. 67426
>>67424TERFs are the theme of this thread. You know, that movement that had to differentiate itself from radical feminism because their number one issue is to be Trans-Exclusionary.
Since that issue is so important to them that it makes up the first two letters of their name, they have no problem backing the enemies of feminism just so they can stick it to trans people.
No. 67431
>>67429That's the part you're going to fix?
This is why I said what I said about TERFs. Because talking shit about trans people was more important than even attempting to argue that the movement doesn't get used by men as a wedge to crack feminism in half.
TERFism only covers one thing that radfem didn't, which was bathroom stuff. Yet TERFs will flip to the right, against libfem, in a second over it.
No. 67435
>>67432That's a more like a radfem point of view though.
TERFs split off from radical feminism and added "exclusionary" to their name because "most of us are fine with transrights" was not acceptable. They are directly against any type of "inclusive" fem by definition.
Anything more moderate than that goes against the first two words of what they call themselves.
Of course, any girl that wants to be TERF is free to do so, but I just said what I said because I don't think having a faction of feminism that can't play ball with the other feminisms is a good idea, especially over bathrooms.
The big picture view of the movement is that they are girls for whom radical feminism was not radical enough. They named themselves Trans-Exclusionary which means (and TERF behavior seems to bear this assumption) that the core of their feminism is to oppose trans. A narrowed down radfem doctrine like that can and does put TERFs in position to be used against the other feminisms by anyone promising to be anti-trans.
All of this is said through the lens of American politics. But the Carolina bathroom situation showed how easily TERFs could be flipped to supporting and possibly voting for politicians who are anti-women just for this one issue.
No. 67436
>>67435no i think you're confused, the exclusionary is referring to excluding them in feminism. having transrights separately is fine, but they don't want that. they want to shoehorn in all their shit into our rhetoric and get mad when they don't get catered to more than real women.
you sound like you've been on tumblr too much, most of us don't care what trans people do themselves outside of feminism, they just need to stay on their side.
No. 67438
>>67436You're using an extreme for trans and moderating the TERF position an awful lot.
You wouldn't know about those huffy mad trannies that TERFs get so ginned up about if you weren't on Tumblr yourself.
Normally you just poop, wash your hands and leave–that's all a bathroom is. But TERFs get so fired up over protecting this "safe space" that they happily jump in with Conservative boycotting of gay friendly corporations who have been great allies to feminism and LGB rights. All it takes is a media narrative of the big hairy trans-boogyman to get a growing section of feminism to turn right around and eat its own friends.
Of course, TERFs are free to be TERFs but I just think their zeal to be trans exclusionary is not helping anyone and only serves as a weapon that powerful men can use to break feminism in half on nearly any social issue.
No. 67457
I used to be all pro-trans and had severe gender dysphoria myself, but without going into a long-winded story I came into a realization that it was all some grade A bullshit. I had many peak trans moments during a few years and ultimately started thinking outside of the trans bubble, especially after seeing tumblr fakebois and perverted, misogynistic transwomen. I've met some nice, moderately sane trans people but a hell of a lot more mental cases that should look into therapy and psychosis medication instead of surgeries and HRT.
While I do believe gender dysphoria is a real thing just like anorexia and other forms of body dysphoria are, it doesn't mean someone can actually have the "brain" of an opposite gender. Literally no study can confirm it. It's a mental disease and usually stems from sexual or gender-related traumas and is practically a form of dissociation. A lot of tumblr fakebois are just lesbians in denial or associate negative things with femininity. I was once like that too. The transwomen are either entitled heterosexual men who can't deal with the pressure the ideal image of a man places on them and decide they're lesbians in male form instead, perverts with a fetish or gay men in denial.
I really hate how libfems think the problem is with the gender binary itself and not the strict gender roles and stereotypes that exist to this day. While for example the 50's housewife ideal mostly isn't around anymore, girls are still left with immerse pressure to be beautiful and feminine instead of talented and intelligent. On the other hand femininity is associated with being vulnerable, sexualized, weak and only meant to serve men.
>>67438>they happily jump in with Conservative boycotting of gay friendly corporations who have been great allies to feminism and LGB rights.The fuck are you going on about? That's what intersectional libfems are doing you dope, not radfems. They're the ones screaming about rainbow flags at mcdonalds during pride week because it's "commercializing LGBT issues". They're also the ones supporting fundamentalist islam, a religion well known for treating women like cattle.
No. 67488
>>67486Expanding a little on this: what I see most libfem people do when they bring up this argument is this retarded
>wah wah if ONLY you ACCEPTED us ALREADY we could like STOP FIGHTING amongst ourselves and go back to our FEMINISMbut that's wrong. First, because feminism has always been about women. Biological women, not because feminists were transphobic before trans even was a widespread thing, but because being female means you get socialized as a woman. It means you're probably going to face sexual harassment/abuse growing up. It means you're going to learn not to speak your mind, not believe in your potential, to contain your sexuality (or have it denied), and so on and so forth.
Then there's the female body we're all taught to find disgusting. Masturbation, vaginas ("ew! gross, smells like fish!"), periods, hair, excessive fat or not enough fat, the female body is understood not as a person but as something primarily used by men for sex.
Trannies understand this better than anyone, by the way. Why would they trade their socially accepted cocks for a disgusting vagina? Besides, they're "better than real women" - and the standard they use for that? They're more feminine, and their bodies are "more sexually attractive" (debatable imo but they do say that), better for sex, higher (male) sex drive, enjoy taking it up the ass.
Why would they get a vagina when screaming that pussy anything is transphobic?
Trannies don't want to be women.
And their issues are not the same women's issues, simply because most don't "pass". Most are never going to be treated the same way a woman is (even if we ignore socialization and focus on post-adulthood).
Their issues aren't women's issues, they're specifically trans issues and including those in feminism is retarded. And if they pass and want to address issues faced for being women, the fact that they're trans doesn't matter. It's not excluding trans people from feminism, it's excluding trans issues.
And when trans issues are brought into feminism? We get vagina-positive things and female health concerns labeled transphobic. As if being born with a "disgusting" vagina and socialized as a woman was some kind of privilege.
TL; DR: we were here first, go start your own movement.
No. 67626
>>67488>And their issues are not the same women's issues, simply because most don't "pass". Most are never going to be treated the same way a woman is (even if we ignore socialization and focus on post-adulthood).A million times THIS. They will NEVER face the same issues as biological women so they should keep out of our spaces. They will never know what it's like to go through childhood, puberty and adulthood as a woman from birth. They will never be socially treated the same as women. So in conclusion - they don't belong in feminism. We don't have to take their "wah wahhh lesbians don't want to fuck me" problems into our ideology. They're men and they'll always be entitled men.
>>67506It's the intersectional libfems that have major daddy issues and not TERFs. Stop trying to troll this fucking thread and get out already.
No. 67634
Ok so I consider myself a feminist, and although I can respect transwomen/transmen and call them whatever shit they want (honestly I don't care what someone wants to be called unless it's totally extreme, otherwise I'm not bothered) I've always thought of transwomen not as "regular women" I put them in another category.
Like, I'll still call them a woman IRL or like for conversational/casual purposes but if it's for awards for example I would say " the first trans woman to win x" instead of "first woman to win x".
If anything, we should just have 3 bathrooms, men, women, and "third gender" (people such as trans,people who don't feel comfortable in either one idk).
Thankfully for me, I've only met 2 trans women in my whole life and they have not been creepy fetishists, they have looked and acted like "regular" women so I don't feel uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with them, but I can understand the need for another bathroom.
No. 67639
>>67638It depends on if you judge TERFs by their behavior or just by their doctrine. What they say is ok. How they say it, bothers me.
TERFs seem to like going out of their way to use the most demeaning terms possible for trans people. That's not something commonly seen in radfem. It's something completely separate from the arguments regarding trans people and I want no part of it. If vanilla radfem can cover my issues, them there's no reason to call myself a TERF and be associated with behavior that makes me uncomfortable.
No. 67649
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>>67637I don't know about mainstream, but on tumblr/twitter its pretty popular to hate on radfems/terfs in social justice circles.
No. 67652
>>67638>Also to the ladies who say they agree with terfs but aren't terfs, what gives?I agree with them on the basis that I don't believe that gender should equate to anything other than your genitals and I simply can't see transwomen as women unless they pass really well like Gigi Gorgeous or someone like that. Even then, I still see them as not real women. However, I also believe transpeople should have rights and don't have a problem using their preferred pronouns (as long as they're not pulling that special snowflake transtrender shit).
>As a more general question, is it possible to be a radfem without being a terf?My experience with radfems are that they're foaming at the mouth over protecting transpeople. Like, they'll bitch you out if you accidently call someone you meet for the first time by their obvious birth gender.
No. 67659
>>67637Just speaking from my own experience, a lot of the time people won't say controvertial things irl amongst friends. But when it comes to discussing TERFs, I've had friends tell me to my face how they think TERFs are ugly, that no man will ever want one, they delight in the idea of them dying alone. They equate TERFs to Nazis, white supremacists and Trump-suppoerters (I don't even live in the US btw so idk what the obsession with Trump-supporters is). All those words are interchangeable to them. They'll share stuff with me about TERFs being DESTROYED by trans people in online debates or being screamed at by hysteric trans women looming over them at protests and marches.
Which is hilarious because I am a TERF and I have nothing but respect for my trans friends. I've never wished death upon anyone so idk why they want that for me. I want them to have the same rights as me and to be able to live how they want and marry who they want. But they have NOTHING to do with feminism and should stop putting their noses in it. I'm really sick of it. They get offended at feminist marches when people hold signs that have imagery of female body parts or when someone gives a speech and doesn't say "women AND TRANS WOMEN". They want women to be called "uterus carriers" which is so fucking insulting and objetifying. They demand access to our bathrooms which I think is fucking sick because that's where me and my friends have hung out on nights out when someone has been too drunk to stand or when someone has had something slipped into their drink and we're waiting on an ambulance. If we let trans people into our bathrooms, men will follow us in. It gives away our only safe space.
They're not feminists, they're just your run-of-the-mill misogynistic men. They see women as sex/baby-making objects, just like men and any feminist events they go to are just a fashion show to them. The only reason why trans people got involved in feminism is because they sure as hell weren't going to get support from anyone else, I wish people could see that.
No. 67663
>>67659Yep, I have trans friends who hate TERFs and have expressed nothing but vitriol for them. They either don't realize that I'm radical leaning or just don't care because I respect pronouns and advocate for LGBT rights. Like you, I respect transwomen and want them to be safe and happy–but not if that means potentially putting women at risk. Physically or psychologically. We can have women spaces where transwomen are welcome, but we still NEED female-only spaces.
I feel like radical feminism is much kinder to transmen because some radical feminists bought into the trans brigade logic, started to transition, and realized they're actually just GNC women. But their voices are silenced by trans groups because detransitioners apparently take away from the image they're trying to present.
I left the radfem circles long ago, because there were some crazies in there, but still agree with a lot of what they have to say. I'm reluctant to even label myself as a feminist now because it's a commodified trend rather than an ideology. At least, IMO.
No. 67665
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>>67655That is based on this btw.
No. 67671
>>67659>They want women to be called "uterus carriers" which is so fucking insulting and objetifyingOh god, that is horrifying. Please tell me it's just a small number of crazies who want that. Can't say that I'm surprised, though, with the militant vitriol toward female genitals that's so rampant in the trans movement. How can you say you're a feminist and demand to be included in feminism when you want us to completely disregard THE VERY THING THAT SCIENTIFICALLY MAKES SOMEONE A WOMAN and is central to the history of female oppression???
The big thing that enrages me about the entire trans moment is the demand for erasure of female body parts. That shit just makes them the enemy. A militant feminist I'm acquainted with put a disclaimer on vagina related art that she meant no disrespect to trans women and that shit pissed me off so much, I wanted to flip a desk. The fact she even feels the need to say that so that she isn't seen as transphobic shows how insane this whole thing has gotten.
These people should be fucking happy with safely being able to live their lives and be called their preferred pronouns, this whole agenda to literally take over the female gender shows we've gone too far in the other direction. We need to balance acceptance with reality and stop catering to these asinine demands.
No. 67673
Talking about
triggered trans tumblerinas, I love this blog
https://uwubanners.tumblr.com/ No. 67679
On the topic of transwomen not respecting lesbian's boundaries regarding dicks, I myself have been in the same boat, but with a transman. He was extremely offended by my decision not to date him and demanded a detailed explanation. I told him as gently as I could muster that having a penis is mandatory for me to have a sexual relationship with someone (the other big factor was that he was fat as fuck and I didn't find him remotely attractive, but I withheld that to spare his feeling to the best of my ability) and he painted me to be a transphobe on league with the kind of people who want to throw them in asylums and force them to wear dresses like back in the day. He made the big deal about how just because he didn't have a dick didn't mean he couldn't fuck me like a man and he had a strap on. I told him I simply couldn't and he proceeded to be a dick to me the remainder of our friendship.
When I relayed this to a friend a few weeks later, she told me I was in the wrong because I basically told him I don't see him as a man. I guess it's true, I just can't see them that way when it comes to having sex. I did realize when I thought about it that I could totally fuck a transwoman as long as she was convincing and she didn't have surgery or hormone therapy (I know that's only like .01% of trans women, but still). When I told my friend this, she insisted that made me bi, but I don't see how since penis is still essential. What do you guys think? Also, what is the best way to turn down a transman without being painted as a transphobe? Just tell them they're not my type, or would that give it away?
>>67673This person seems like someone I could have good conversation with.
No. 67687
>>67681Because being transgender is a real thing. It might be mental illness, or a physical disorder, either way tons of studies do show that their brains are wired differently - more closely aligned to their gender identity.
And that's fine.
The problem is, it just doesn't dismiss your entire childhood and upbringing, which differs based on gender, or your actual genitals. The problem is people who insist they have a clit or a penis when they don't, or who insist that, because they feel like a woman/man then they know what it's like. And that's disregarding fetishists entirely.
No. 67688
>>67673Back when I was active on tumblr, there was actually a community of transwomen who openly identified as radical feminists, or "truscum".
Btw, truscum are people who believe you must suffer from gender dysphoria in order to be actually considered trans. Make of that what you will..
No. 67694
>>67681Seeing talk about "transracial-ness" was what made me skeptical about transgender-ness.
What do you guys think though about comparing it to sexualities? Like, there are sexualities towards genders but not races, so I think that's why there may be trans-ness in regards to gender but not races.
But yeah, that's the only argument I can really think of to justify the difference between "transgender-ness" and "transracial-ness".
No. 67695
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>>67673I'm loving the drama that's happening with some crazy fakeboi
No. 67696
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>>67695I love you uwubanners
No. 67708
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>>67696Holy kek that fake "anxiety attack" typing
No. 67709
>>67687a lot of those brain studies aren't conclusive. we still don't know if there are sex differences according to neuroscience.
>>67663>I left the radfem circles long ago, because there were some crazies in there, but still agree with a lot of what they have to say. I'm reluctant to even label myself as a feminist now because it's a commodified trend rather than an ideology. At least, IMO.
Agreed
>>67679That sucks. Nobody should have to have sex with someone they don't want to
No. 67718
>>67709>a lot of those brain studies aren't conclusive. we still don't know if there are sex differences according to neuroscience. Well I guess not, neuroscience is practically primitive. We know so little about how and why our brain works the way they do, or don't. It's not outside the realm of possibility.
So many things can go wrong in the womb, people born without or with extra limbs, it's not that hard to imagine the body developing differently than the brain.
It's sort of like people who want to amputate a limb because it feels "wrong". Extremely rare, but it happens. It feels foreign and "wrong" because it isn't in their brain's map. I guess being truly transgender is sort of like that.
No. 67721
>>67718Just because something shows up on a brain scan doesn't mean it's a biological issue you're born with and not treatable. Depression noticeably shows up on brain scans and that doesn't mean you're born with it or that it can't be treated with medication and therapy. Brains go through changes according to your mental state all your life.
And body dysphoria is not a "birth defect". Anorexia is a form of body dysphoria. Black kids hating their skin is a form of body dysphoria. Anyone can agree that their self-hatred is because of outside influence and society enforcing standards and stereotypes on them, but suddenly with gender it's "a real thing" and requires mutilating surgery and hormonal medication that fucks up your insides for the rest of your life? When the other forms of body dysphoria are treated with cognitive behavioral therapy and psychosis medication? Imagine telling a black kid that no, it's not the society glorifying white skin around you, it's because you actually were born with a white brain. That's the equivalent of saying to a self-hating girl suffering through puberty that yes, indeed, your interest in stereotypically boyish stuff and hating your tits that attract unwanted attention really does mean you're a man and DEFINITELY not that the society is forcing gender stereotypes and injecting girls with internalized hatred of their objectified body since birth.
Since most doctors are now pushing the idea of offering HRT and surgeries right away, we'll never get to test different forms of treatment. Patients (and their parents) are told that they will most likely kill themselves unless they go through full transition, so of course they want to go through it. The only thing they leave out is the fact that the risk of suicide actually rises after transitioning. And why wouldn't it, it's basically just mutilating your body and a lot of young trans people have no clue how painful and irreversible it is.
No. 67732
>>67721The doctors are just doing this shit for money.
I read a study that mtf trans specifically have a lot of shame and self loathing in the US because of circumcision, which also is done in the same situation you described, scaring parents, not explaining how irreversible it is, not explaining the dangers of it as a procedure, just wanting to line their pockets. They're doing the same thing with the trans movement. Society pushes gender roles on people, which make them think they themselves are wrong instead of society. Then doctors mislead them and their parents and they ruin their bodies.
I am totally against trans anything, but not because I don't accept them, but because they are not a gender, or a sex, they're diseased.
No. 67755
>>67746Well easier said than done, a few years ago this was easy to do but I have noticed recently more and more people are coming out (I believe the term is transtrender? People who say they are transgender but are not dysmorphic/make no effort at all to "pass" as the opposite gender) okcupid is full of them. But also its like
>>67749 said.
I find it very hard to keep quiet now tho when some of them go round saying "if you're a lesbian and you wont date a transwomen you're not a lesbian/a bigot" because they are saying this to teenagers who feel guilty and even worse getting a lot of much older transwomen hitting on them. I'm not even a lesbian but I have huge sympathy and am becoming protective of especially younger lesbians because no one should be forced to have sex with someone so they dont feel like a bigot. makes me sick.
Saged for rant.
No. 67766
>>67762Thank you for saying this anon. Like I used to be worried about coming here and showing my real thoughts because if you have any thoughts which are feminist-y you'd get shit here so glad this thread is here. But isnt it sad that these days not wanting to date everyone makes you a bigot?
Oh wait who am I kidding this just applies to those "horrible lesbians" who have the audacity to not fuck transwomen. Like I said even though I am not a lesbian I am starting to get really defensive of them because that shit riles me up. The transgender movement is a cult.
No. 67767
>>67634>If anything, we should just have 3 bathrooms, men, women, and "third gender" My school has this (in the form of gender-neutral washrooms) and it works out really well. It's great because "non-passing" people can use those restrooms without making anyone uncomfortable, or having to be uncomfortable themselves. It's also nice for people who are cis but androgynous - I have a very masculine-looking female friend who uses these restrooms instead because it's awkward for her to get mistaken as a man when she's in the female restroom.
I imagine these would be hard to implement all over the place (like most places with public restrooms aren't going to have the room/money to add another) and stick-in-ass conservatives would throw a fit, but honestly it'd be great to have it in all universities, larger government buildings, even malls, museums, etc
No. 67789
>>67721>And body dysphoria is not a "birth defect"You can't say that for sure.
As for anorexia or hating one's skin colour, these are nearly unexistant without social precursors, or religious which is a social invention as well.
Or gender roles.
I'm just saying I do believe some people are genuinely trans, and I hate how people take a black and white view of things.
I am a radical feminist, and I think the vast majority of trans folks are either frauds or mislead or plain brainwashed. But to dismiss every single one of them is wrong.
No. 67797
>>67795>even with hormone replacement because the brain is wired from birth to understand it's real genderYou meant sex reassignment and sexuality, not gender.
I'm not disagreeing with you. However, gender is determined as the identity and roles imposed by societal and familial circles once the biological sex is determined.
Everyone can change genders easily, it's their biological sexualities that they cannot escape. That's why a baby who had a sex reassignment at birth begins to doubt their gender as they grow older because they still have the hormonal changes and thoughts of someone from the opposite sex.
At any rate, babies and young children shouldn't be mutilated like that ever. Nor the idea placed into their heads until they're grown enough to make their own decisions.
No. 67799
I'm a TERF. I support being respectful of trans people if I encounter them in the workplace etc. I believe they shouldn't be victims of physical violence. I'll even respect your pronouns if you're passing (Blaire White yes, Riley Dennis no) However I dont believe they are the gender they wish to be.
You are a man or woman based on what you're born with and no, I am not saying women born with defects or who lose one of those things at some point aren't women. If a woman retains at least 1 biological characteristic that only a biological woman can, then they are female. Ovaries, the ability to become pregnant, have a period, natural female hormone levels, breasts, etc. If you have any biological characteristics of a female despite having 1 or more defects or having something removed due to cancer and other physical diseases, you are female.
However, synthetic hormones, genital reconstruction surgeries to look more like the opposite (it's NOT reassignment), wigs, laser treatment, boob job, women's clothes etc, do not make a man a woman. Even Blaire White admit she isn't a real woman and is mimicking real women because it makes her happier. I have more respect if they accept they are trans women and dont try to force being considered the same as being a biological female.
No. 67830
>>67457Me too. Even after straying from the herd I still haven't a single IRL person to talk about this with sanely. It's sad to see so many people make dangerous choices because too many are afraid to gove these people the mental help they need, not physical mutilation. I remember reading somewhere before that even in the slim case the person transitions smoothly, they will still most likely commit suicide because the transition wasn't the answer to their problems in the first place.
Also, on an unrelated note, it's really annoying trying to find another girl to date in such a current political climate….but whatever, at least I have my anime body pillows
No. 67896
>>67895She literally said she doesn't "believe in" the definitions of sex and gender and won't accept that they refer to different things.
Sex refers to the biological state of being male or female.
Gender refers to the characteristics of being male or female with reference to social and cultural differences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionYou. are. wrong.
No. 67900
>>67899So because I presented a challenge I need to leave?
For fuck's sake, I was AGREEING with these posts, just that I think there's a difference between sex and gender and to not conflate them.
No. 67909
>>67907>calling an anon stupid because she feels a certain wayIn a conversation where definitions matter, it is pretty dumb to bring bullheaded feelings to the table. The wikipedia is proof that there are conversations about the definitions and its not something I'm making up to be difficult, or because I'm an ESL struggling, which I'm not btw.
>but gender is a thing -others- use to define you, not that you use to define yourselfWe're in agreement, and I quote
>>67896>"Gender refers to the characteristics of being male or female with reference to social and cultural differences." No. 67923
>>67764Underrated post.
I almost never see someone calling themselves a TERF unless it's ironic. These women are radical feminists, which excludes men by default. Feminism is for females. Trans "men" are included in radical feminism because they are female. Radfems just don't believe in magical gender identity bullshit.
TERF is also considered a slur by many radfems because not only is the term used to silence their opinions, it is often accompanied by graphic threats of rape and death. Documented on r/terfisaslur if you need proof.
No. 67932
>>67925I think gender is connected to the person's sex, but it's much more than just your genitalia. "Woman" has multiple connotations, such as being empathetic, nurturing, (being human), whatever other gender role/stereotype. Whereas female is purely based on biological realities (other animals are female, young girls are female but they're not women, etc.) So yeah you can interchange gender and sex in general, but when having discussions about trans, radfem, sex brain stuff i think it's important to differentiate.
From what i've read, radfems believe that gender (being in a woman role) is something placed on the female sex, thus creating a lower, subservient gender class. It's why girls "become women." (or at least that's how i interpreted the gender/sex definition)
No. 67934
>>67932See, I get that, but it's stupid.
Gender roles do come with gender, yes, but gender is decided based on genitalia, and that's how gender is viewed. Regardless of the gender roles that come with that gender, it's still decided based explicitly on your sex. The gender roles can(and have) been changed throughout history, which is what we want, but in order to do that, I feel we should keep gender and sex firmly attached. If we focus on the idea that gender is not sex, there will simply be another word that describes the same thing based on being female.
This is part of the reason why all those tumblr genders are ignored, because gender doesn't matter. People can't simply say change the word the use and present as a female and have female genitalia and be free of their gender roles.
If someone presents as a man they can only retain the privilege of being man until you find out that their genitals are a female's, then they are placed back into the woman category, because that's what makes a woman a woman according to most people.
Gender isn't really important at all when it comes to stereotyping females, because it doesn't start at the gender, it starts at the genitals. Saying "I'm a woman" will make someone feel the same about you as saying "I have a vagina/female genitalia" So I feel in a cultural sense they are exactly the same.
I especially feel this when talking about people who are trans, it's also even more closely connected in the trans community, because being a woman simply means to change your physical appearance and appear to have woman genitals.
If a transwoman identifies themselves as a woman, it is assumed they mean female to people who are communicating with them up to the point that it's found out that they have male genitals or have transitioned. In this sense, using their preferred gender may make them feel more comfortable but unless they look like the sex associated with that gender, they are not treated as that gender.
If you look at it this way, gender and sex are entirely the same, even in the sense that you've explained.
If gender is based on genitalia, and you gain gender roles based on your assigned gender, you cannot escape them simply by changing your gender or ignoring it because people will always associate your gender with your sex, and when they can't gender as a concept will simply change to something else with the same exact issues.
No. 67942
>>67934No, that's stupid. If sex and gender are the exact same thing then the word gender would not exist. What's the point. It was originally used to refer to the social roles associated with sex, something we don't get to choose. Feminist preferred "gender roles, gender hierarchy" etc but that got phased out. The word got into the mainstream and became used by prudes to refer to sex interchangbly because of the double meaning of "sex".
Now there are three ways to use it. The radfem way, saying it's the assigned role that you don't have to agree with. We can all just be the reproductive sex we are with a unique personality that shouldn't have to be influenced by our genitals. Or, the libfem way. We all have a "gender identity" i.e. an inherent sense of being a woman, man, neither. Instead of fighting categories, make more. Lastly, the conservative/right wing way that uses it interchangably because they believe men and women are inherently very different and aren't socialised to take on these roles.
The gender/sex distinction is essential in academia revolving around gender and sexuality discourse. It's seen in many fields, not just in gender/woman's studies but it's really important in anthropology and others too. You're being naïve. You can have your own opinion on what you believe gender to be, but in academia we seperate sex and gender, gender referring to gender roles. So whether you do believe it or not, it's important to distinguish between the two. Especially if people from different sides of the debate are talking about it. We're all using the same words but discussing different things!
No. 68068
>>67942Interesting because in my language (and in surely many others too) a word equivalent for "gender" does not exist. There's only the "sex" equivalent word and that is all.
Another great example on how our language modifies our view of the world.
No. 68069
>>68068My language doesn't have a separate word for sex and gender either. Only one. And this is the case with.. every language besides English probably. The English word "gender" originally referred to the classes of nouns (feminine, neutral or masculine) anyway but people started using it interchangeably with "sex".
I seriously don't get how inventing more "gender identities" is going to solve the problem with gender stereotypes. If anything, it'll just make it more complicated and worse with NEW stereotypes. People should just understand that there are two biological sexes but you can present yourself however the fuck you want while still being fine with your natal sex.
No. 68075
>>68069>every language besides English probably.That's not true.
>The English word "gender" originally referred to the classes of nouns (feminine, neutral or masculine) anyway but people started using it interchangeably with "sex".That's true. Which is why it's important to clarify the definitions when having these conversations. Personally, I believe that sex (male/female) is the only thing that actually matters whereas gender (masculine/feminine) isn't innate but harmful and oppressive stereotypes which makes me a terf i guess.
No. 68081
>>68077people aren't saying we should get rid of the words. they are saying we should stop forcing people to conform to the stereotypes.
>>68078is english your first language? in romance languages you are right but it's not the same in germanic languages. women are female and men are male. but women can be masculine and men can be feminine. think of butch lesbians and flamboyant gay guys for example.
No. 68084
>>68082i don't think anyone is saying add different gender identities. gender is also not really an identity. i don't identify as a woman, i just am because i was born female. however, just because i am a woman, doesn't mean I can't be masculine (but if gender = sex then i would ONLY be feminine and can't possibly be masculine in any shape or form)
what the fuck is masculine and feminine anyway? liking trucks vs. dolls? logic vs. emotions? leader vs. subordinate?
honestly gender is such bs
No. 68291
The articles marked #gender on the radical feminist site feministcurrent.com are very enlightening. In the discussions in the comment sections, the writers and many of the regular commenters are very adept at clearly and rationally defining gender and sex and defending feminism and women-only spaces against attacks by transactivists.
Radical (and second wave) feminism seeks to abolish gender (because it is a tool of patriarchy) while transactivism reinforces the gender binary. For example, when a MtT states, "I am a woman because I feel like I am," they counter with, "What does being a woman feel like, without resorting to performative gender stereotypes?"
The notion of "non-binary" reinforces the gender binary. People who self-define as non-binary describe themselves as "feeling" like and both a man and a woman or somewhere in between and want the freedom to present themselves as either or both. Again, these statements rely on performative gender stereotypes. The same is true of "agender."
With the rise of modern transactivism, some gay and lesbian activists have proposed separating the LGB from T. After all, LGB are identities of sexuality and not of gender, and the LGB communities have traditionally welcomed all manner of gender expression. Accusations of transphobia against gays and lesbians who are not attracted to transgender individuals offensively redefines gay and lesbian identities.
Transactivism subtly erases butch lesbian identity. Many young FtT who have detransitioned realised that they are really butch lesbians. Previously they had concluded that they must be men since transactivism defines "feeling like a man" as preferring stereotypically male-gendered behaviour and presentation.
In transactivist ideology, sex and gender are discrete until the distinction becomes inconvenient for personal or political gain, at which point they are content to conflate the two. For example, the movement to allow for a third sex classification on state-issued identification and birth certificates as "X" or "non-binary": the designation has historically always referred to biological sex along with other descriptors of innate physical characteristics for the purpose of identification. But rather than push for changing the qualifier from "sex" to "gender" they laud the legislation's unspoken and clumsy redefinition of "sex".
No. 68406
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Something that I hate about the Anti Terf community is the whole "Terfs are LITERALLY killing trans people". There is no document of a Radfem or Terf assaulting a trans women. But there is alot a violence towards radfems both physically and verbally. Two weeks ago there was a elderly Radfem in londan that was attacked by two transactivists. There's also this porno that's in the making by a "Feminist" porn company. The Twitter was banned but the company behind it still has a Twitter. Instead of complaining about the evil TERFS, Maybe acknowledge the facts that a ton of trans activists are disgusting and violent
No. 68409
>>68406One tranny activist literally stabbed two lesbians to death and killed their two sons. But I guess since they're both lesbians and the sons aren't white it doesn't matter.
On the other hand a straight woman is hit and it's an international scandal.
No. 68411
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>>68409Not even shocked that this dude murdered two lesbians and thier son.
No. 68422
>>68409And don't forget all the "trans activist" transwomen convicted of sexual assault such as Cherno Biko who raped a woman to "forcibly impregnate her". And another transwoman Abuzar Chaudhary organizing a violent assault against TERFs. And the recent drama of Shmorky (a nonbinary transwoman) grooming minors to fit his sexual fetishes. There are so many cases of transwomen harassing and attacking women but none of them make it to the mainstream news outlets because they get categorized as "female on female" assaults.
And as for the issue with lesbians being shamed for not being attracted to transwomen, this is a pretty good look into how men have alwys tried to erase lesbianism.
http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/08/lesbianism-attack-though-not-usual-suspects/ No. 68426
>>68291Going through the articles was a breath of fresh air but fuck did I get mad reading the comments. Even if the trans apologists were debunked again and again, I still can't believe women are siding with this.
I'll repeat what I keep telling my friends: at this point, I'm more afraid of this side of liberalism than I am of literal nazis. At least the Nazis are clearly identified as violent and "evil" by themselves and everyone else. They don't pretend to be morally correct. The same cannot be said of trans apologists, who pose themselves as "the right side of history" and end up dragging anyone who means well and wants to be inclusive into their dangerous narrative.
No. 68439
The controversy over MtT entering women-only spaces dates back decades to the Michigan Womyn's Festival and the rise of Third Wave Feminism during the 1990s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyn%27s_Music_Festival#Controversy_about_transgender_peopleLiberal Feminism inclusive of Transactivism grew out of Third Wave Feminism. Radical Feminism is a return to Second Wave Feminism and a backlash against the tenets of Liberal Feminism that dilute feminism and redefine "woman" by including transgender.
Dyke March Not Dick March!
Every year more and more lesbians decline to attend their local Pride celebration's Dyke March due to its invasion by "translesbians".
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/dyke-march-not-dick-march/https://listening2lesbians.com/2017/06/16/chicago-dyke-march-tells-lesbians-to-stay-away-if-they-dont-like-dick/ No. 68458
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I've noticed a lot of people who do not identify with being terf or even feminists speak out against transwomen in the same way terfs do. But when transwomen spout shit like pic related its easy to see why.
No. 68461
>>68458Wait….did they post this on a LESBIAN FACEBOOK GROUP? Un fucking believable man. I don't even get that upset about the trans community as a lot of people in this thread, though I understand where you guys are coming from, but this? Going into a space meant for females and slyly suggesting that they aren't female enough? Fuck right off.
A lesbian wearing flannel with a buzzcut is a still a woman. Trying to insinuate that she isn't because she doesn't wear bows and exhibit 'compassion and sensitivity (read: submission) is fucked up.
No. 68462
>>68461>Going into a space meant for females If they were here they would be calling ou transphobic and cis-scum. This whole thing has gotten so rediculous and they are angry that people are seeing them for what they really are.
Rather than make their own spaces they seem hellbent on destroying others-I used to be sympathetic to these people but now? They can go fuck themselves.
No. 68463
>>68462> they would be calling you transphobicYes, they probably would. But I don't even necessarily mean that they shouldn't be allowed there or any shit like that, but if it was indeed a facebook group meant for lesbians, don't waltz into the group and make a post like that. That's some bullshit. The one and only thing that bothers me about the trans community (personally, though I'm starting to see other convincing arguments), is their blatant misogyny and need to put biological women down in order to prop themselves up. Just like another group that we already have to deal with this shit from on a daily basis….CIS MEN.
Sorry for sperging out but wow. Go make that post in a trans group if you want to insult women for not being your idea of feminine. That's some catty shit.
No. 68465
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>>68463No but this is the point. As mentioned in the transwomen thread, this is the reason they are getting hate. They do this constantly.
>is their blatant misogyny and need to put biological women down in order to prop themselves upAgain this is a resonable response and the reason many people dislike them, not the made up shit about women being jealous of transwomen etc. Hell i'm not even a feminist but this is one thing I agree with terfs on. I''ve seen even the most open and liberal feminists get shit on. Like with pic related, even when they are invited to join all they seem to want to do is destroy because they are angry at women for being women. As you say, its misogyny.
No. 68466
>>68465lmao @ them not even trying to hide their hatred for women. The very thing that they are trying to become.
God they might even be more aggressive and shitty towards women than a majority of cis men are.
No. 68468
>>68465This is so depressing. I just looked into the festival and it seemed like such an awesome place, why do these people have to fucking ruin it? Cis men went the whole 40 years without trying to infiltrate this festival but fucking trans women couldn't accept women wanting ONE even where they could gather with other women who've had the same life experiences. Women experience so much based on their socialization an anatomy, to deny women the ability to share their experiences seems blatantly misogynistic and/or a selfish manifestation of weird jealousy.
I get it if they feel upset about it, but the fact that they pressed so hard to completely stop the entire event forever just because they couldn't attend is so fucking selfish and entitled.
Actually the more I think about it the more it seems like a silencing tactic, especially because this event was a major gathering point for lesbians
No. 68471
>>68470whoops my bad, i thought i did but i can see now its not there, this reply was for
>>68468saged
No. 68476
>>68449To be honest, those other fights are dragged into it quite easily since they all share the "identity above all else" aspect, which is
problematic (rofl I hate this word but don't have a better one) on its own. Once you take someone's traits as both a requirement and a free pass to talk about a subject, you lose all objectivity and you no longer side with the truth. You're right - it's very much like a religion both in principle and execution, and it even comes with a salvation of sorts ("being a good ally".)
>>68466>The very thing that they are trying to become. They're not trying to become women like us. They're trying to become their own idea of a feminine being that's heavily fetishized, plastic, "better at sex", "more appealing to men". An ideal of femininity, as opposed to "a woman". Not too different from drag queens, I might add, at least not as far as looks are concerned
No. 68493
So much this excellent essay:
http://thefederalist.com/2017/05/02/trans-activists-will-destroy-homosexual-rights/Enter the newest and loudest cause: transgender activism. Beneath the lavish media praise, the trans movement is hiding a litany of self-annihilating logic and regressive attitudes that merit public conversation. Aside from changing language to suit their subjective identity, the push to deny women sex-segregated protections, and the aggressive support for the transitioning of children, the often overlooked reality to this activism is the movement’s blatantly aggressive homophobia.
No. 68550
>>67379this.
I won't be rude to them or express my opinion about it, but i secretly think it's a mental disorder and no matter how well they pass, most of them are terrible and still act like men (as in whining lesbians won't fuck them, like no, i don't want your chinese bootleg pussy, and i'm not sorry in the slightest for it)
No. 68551
>>68476>They're not trying to become women like us. They're trying to become their own idea of a feminine being that's heavily fetishized, plastic, "better at sex"All of this, for at least 90% of them that's probably what they really are.
They fetishize being women like crazy,I once saw a thread about those fuckers being happy they got catcalled or even groped or just guys being nice to them because "i pass desu uwu".
Just fuck those degenerates.
No. 68561
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The majority of them don't even pass lmao. Most of them still have big fucking beak noses and stubble.The fact that "Butch transwomen" is now a term these fuckers use is so gross.Its just an excuse for them to put no effort into looking female but still get asspats from the transactivists
No. 68580
what was YOUR peak trans moment, ladies?
mine was when i got groomed by a much older e-popular disgusting freak who simultaneously fetishized and preyed on me being a baby lesbian. said freak emotionally abused and gaslit me to an absolutely insane degree. i didn't realize just how much he had broken me down or just how predatory he was until he was openly toying with my mental state while he knew i was institutionalized for having the worst major trauma and stress induced episode/breakdown i have had in my entire life.
speaking from experience, these deranged animals are a serious danger to closeted/newly out/baby lesbians. they know how to wear a caricature of femininity like a veil to hide their true nature and intentions, and since most (non tumblr indoctrinated) women consider them men, they can appear at first glance to be a satisfactory compromise between one's true lesbian desire for women, and the ever-looming pressure to suppress that desire and be with a man. this is exactly why i ended up dating an array of them, and how i myself became indoctrinated into the trans cult, for a time.
i feel particularly bad for how i treated the women who tried to warn me about/save me from these predators. i absolutely undeniably threw them under the bus and smeared them because i was afraid of the rage fit repercussions of my "girl"friend at the time, who had intense paranoia and a violent temper that made him very adept at turning barely legal baby lesbians into lifeless husks of their former selves who existed solely to fulfill his sexual pleasure and personal needs. i won't go into explicit detail because this is, imo, the most sickening part of this ordeal, but… surprise, surprise! the older man who groomed me was a closet pedophile and used me as a less risky surrogate for a child to groom.
apologies for the blogpost, but i thought i could offer some insight as to how these pieces of shit operate, and why young girls are often eager to be with and/or defend them.
this person was my first experience with a MtT and every man i have dated since him has only further affirmed that this is their true nature.
No. 68620
I've made some effort to get more familiar with feminist thought and communities. There are some clever theorists, but maybe 90% of activity online is cancerous trash.
The majority of feminists have no praxis at all beyond participating in flame wars and being mean to people on blogs. They couldn't recommend any legal or institutional change, they would just tell you that the world would be a better place if everybody agreed with them and avoided using hurtful terminology. These flamewar feminists get mad at PUAs, incels, conservative Christians, other feminists, and (if they're TERFs) trannies. There's nothing dignified about it, they just like feeling righteous while they wage cyber bullying campaigns and getting mad at spergs using the term friendzone. I've never seen any activist group as catty or cannibalistic, and the entire movement is a stream of life ruining campaigns directed against one woman or another. TERFs are unusually bad offenders here.
It all comes off as disgusting. There's no concern for the wellbeing of anybody, it's just outrage addiction, sanctimoniousness, and the kind of contempt for weakness you see among neo-Nazis.
Feminism, in its popular manifestation, validates almost everything Hoffer said about mass movements.
No. 68630
>>68580I actually used to be a huge trans activist and quite frankly believed I was trans myself. In a nutshell:
>1st step: I saw all the Tumblr transtrenders. That was step 1. talking about all the shitty genders they came up wth.>2nd step: I saw all the gross ass transwomen preying on women and trying to take over their spaces>3rd step: I saw how parents decided that their fucking 2 YEAR OLD is trans and they wanted to raise them in their "real gender" >Peak moment: I realized how the trans movement practices homophobia and homosexual erasure and then finally came to terms with my own homosexuality. This whole trans religion is so fucking dangerous to young people. I feel sick every time I see 20-year old butch lesbians in denial getting HRT and SRS because the society is more accepting of a transman being straight than a woman being masculine and a lesbian.
No. 68634
>>68633a feminist.
i dont even know why they are trying make lgbt issues a feminist issue they are seperate things
No. 68655
>>68638>moderate feminism when?Soon, I hope.
Anyone else just wanna punch those "i'm anti feminist u guise lol look i'm so speshul" girls?
I get not wanting to be associated to 3rd wave feminism, which can get retarded, but without feminism they probably wouldn't even be where they are right now. Are they just desperate to be "not like the other girls" or…?
No. 68665
>>68664>Internet feminism is unusually bad, even for the internet.I used to think this before i discovered a lot of times anti-feminists pretend to be feminists and spout stupid things (like that one "womans" who wanted to decrease the worlds men population by 90%, turned out to be a mra)
>Also, the movement has some leftover mainstream legitimacy it doesn't really deserve anymore (at least imo).How so?
No. 68670
>>68665>(like that one "womans" who wanted to decrease the worlds men population by 90%, turned out to be a mra)I really mean more in terms of being repetitive than evil, and in terms of cattiness. Tumblr and twitter feminists get mad about the same shit everyday. Add in all of the antifeminist autism and the whole scene is a vortex of outrage which produces nothing at all.
>How so?In mainstream media. Not necessarily with normal people.
No. 68673
>>68671I agree with you to an extent. And I know this will piss someone off, but I fear that the extreme wings of the third wave have only made things worse for women. I feel like there's more misogyny around than ever, and I worry that the third wave has partially encouraged that. It's like no one takes women seriously anymore, and now they want to boomerang us back to the 50s where women ~knew their place.~
It scares me a bit sometimes.
No. 68681
>>68638When did the Third Wave mutate into the morass it is today? In retrospect will this period be regarded as a time of upheaval or transition in feminism with the split between liberal and radical factions?
I came of age at the cusp of the Third Wave in the early 90s. RE/search Publication's Angry Women was my guidebook. I had a subscription to Bitch Magazine. I (stage) dove into Riot Grrl after feeling marginalised by male-dominated Grunge. At the same time, my bookshelves were stocked with the works of many Second Wave writers who were well-respected, if not still revered, by Third Wavers.
Androgyny was simply androgyny and not codified into an endless myriad of "genders". Gender expression was something a person did as opposed to who someone was.
Sage for being a grumpy old. I used to be with "it" but then they changed what "it" was. And now what is "it" seems weird and scary to me.
No. 68695
>>68692Without an actual feminist political party, with organized leadership, feminism will always be represented by the dumbest person who makes a YouTube video or a Tumblr post.
It can't be helped. All grassroots movements will eventually be seen as too extreme for the average person unless they have a charismatic public figure to control the narrative.
No. 68733
>>68692Again, that is because if you admit to being a feminist, men fucking hate you. Most girls want to be liked by men, it takes some guts to be open about your opinions and get shit on for them. And many of them will pull the 'not like other girls' shit because it's an easy way to get brownie points.
Men will never, ever respect feminism regardless of the form it takes because women pursuing their own interests is contrary to what they want from us.
No. 68734
>>68733It's not as simple as not having guts. There's been so much cringe made readily available by the internet that a lot of potential feminists avoid the movement just out of second-hand embarrassment.
One of the reasons why the Tea Party ended up successful was because they had a core of radio hosts with big enough voices to drown out the average person. If a normal person were exposed to Tea Party ideas, chances are that it will be relatively organized propaganda straight from Levin, Hannity, or Rush.
If a normal person is exposed to feminism, it's probably via memes and gifs of college students screaming. Even in this thread, girls are asking for links for feminist website.
If we can't even find them for ourselves easily, what's a teenager going to do? They'll only read angry, poorly written posts on Facebook and Tumblr by a girl who hates men since that's what gets reblogs and shared for laughs. At that moment, the young girl, who probably likes her dad or her brother, is lost forever until a close feminist friend can bring them back from the dark.
Feminism needs a Rush Limbaugh or at least an official political structure that can do damage control in national media everytime a idiot gets thousands of shares and eyes on her post.
No. 68735
>>68733And that subtle implication that those uninformed girls are cowardly and don't have guts is not helpful in the least. The focus should be on persuading them even harder. If they are gutless, that shouldn't be an obstacle to getting feminist ideas into them if they are packaged the right way.
One of the most interesting things about Mien Kampf is the inside look at the Nazi's branding strategy and how they managed to break up the blocks of Marxism and flip the socialist German worker into German Nationalism despite them being two opposing ideologies. Feminism doesn't have nearly as big a handicap as that, so there's no excuse for being a disorganized mess that can't even deliver proper messages to teenagers.
But instead of finding a way to make a good case for feminism to those gutless girls, too many feminists just pout and make fun them for not instantly being pulled into our fold.
No. 68736
>>68735That is definitely not what I meant to imply, though I can see how it sounded that way. I meant it more like 'it takes an impressive amount of guts', it's something I respect and admire but couldn't reasonably expect from the majority of people. It's normal and natural to favour being liked and keeping the peace over picking fights. I don't have the guts for it a lot of the time, feminist issues are just not an argument I enjoy getting into (in real life at least), especially with hostile men.
I'm just saying it's not feminism's fault. Men hate the idea of it more than any specific message it sends, no matter how reasonable and fair the message might be. Of course, there are always ways to improve how it's communicated and the impression people get of it, but it's not true that people are against feminism just because of the crazy ones with the biggest soapboxes. It goes deeper than that, even the most innocuously conveyed feminist messages get negative responses.
No. 68779
>>68769You really hit the nail on the head with this one, anon.
There seem to be two types of main motives for FTMs. The ones filled with internalized misogyny/lesbophobia and possibly sexual trauma, and the ones fetishizing the fuck out of "gay culture" with some of the mentioned features thrown in the mix.
>Type 1-a: I hate women so much because women are dim-witted and weak and I hate being sexually harassed, allow me to become male so I don't have to be such a weak piece of shit! My daddy issues basically control my life and I never had a healthy relationship with other girls in high school so I let them twist my vision of femininity!>Type 1-b: I'm lesbian/bi but I can't come to terms with my sexuality, I want to become a male so I can date girls without being horribly self-aware and afraid of being shunned! My parents and/or community probably hates homosexuals so they're going to encourage me into becoming "straight".
>Type 2-a: YASSS SLAYYYYYY omg I JUST saw that RuPaul episode, I'm SO friggin hyped to do a new drag queen makeup test also check out my new pastel coords uwu Gawd I love being a gay male because they get to be sassy and girly while still being likable, but when a woman does it, it's embarrassing! Gonna CROSSplay my fav girl character next cuz I'm such a trap! Remember - women lusting after men is icky, but gay men doing it is amazing!>Type 2-b: I resent my female sexuality so the only way I get to vent out my pent-up sexual frustration is by presenting as an attractive man, usually as the K-Pop/Anime/Tumblr inspired idealized version of a male. I'm also a combination of all the beforementioned types because I probably do this as a way to escape sexual harassment, the stereotypical social role of a woman, the negative connotations associated with womanhood and my possible homosexuality!So all of their problems actually stem from them hating the social role placed upon a woman and want to escape it, which is why so many tumblrinas are "nonbinary" or their view of being male is inspired by the glorified version found in media meant for women.
No. 68787
>>68767I know one sorta transman. The thing is she likes to be called by her male name, is dating a chick and dresses/does her hair like a guy, but doesn't have preferred pronouns or whatever and doesn't really advertise herself as a transman or anything. I know because we've worked on a few projects together but I'm fairly certain most people don't even realise she's trans.
I've however met several transwomen, they were all equally horrible and in your face with their 'femininity'
No. 68791
>>68779How about the increasing number of FtT who enter relationships with confirmed gay men and then get pregnant and give birth?
And don't forget the new terms we must adopt so that we don't
trigger their dysphoria or make them feel excluded such as "pregnant person" and "chest-feeding".
If you have gender dysphoria, why are you having vaginal intercourse with a man and getting pregnant?
Woops, I'm sorry, what is the new term for "vaginal intercourse"? "Manginal intercourse"?
No. 68794
>>68779
>Type 2-bThe tumblr fakebois?
>>>/snow/276054Girls who pretend to be effeminate boys who often dress as girls but who do not experience dysphoria nor pursue transition or even bind. Gender is purely about clothing and accessories and which pronouns you use on social media.
What was wrong with dressing androgynously? For all their retro love for the 80s, androgyny isn't speshul enough, I guess.
No. 68801
TFW you find yourself agreeing with Piers Morgan.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4961910/Good-Morning-Britain-Piers-gender-fluid-guest.htmlTabitha had to defend a suggestion from Susanna that she was 'dressing up', and said that how she looks on each day is important.
'It's not dressing up… It’s dressing up according to who I am that day,' she said. 'It’s important to create a bold identity.'
Tabitha explained that there is no equal share when it comes to whether she is a man or woman on the day. During her appearance Tabitha said that she is often 'confused' when she wakes up until her brain settles in to the particular gender of the day.
'There's no percentage at all – you just get what you’re given on the day,' she said.
Confirming that she was born female she added: 'I accept it but I wasn’t particularly happy about it. 'That is the difficult thing about being trans.. Sorry gender fluid. The reason I said trans is because I have many trans friends,' she said to clarify the mistake.
Piers - who said he had never met a person like Tabitha - questioned whether her biological father transitioning to a woman was the root of her 'confusion' over her gender.
'I'm not confused about being male and female, it just takes a couple of minute to work out,' she replied.
LOLWUT?!
No. 68816
>>68779> hating the social role placed upon a woman and want to escape itYep, this is exactly what happened for me (>>68769)
I started questioning my gender shortly after being sexually assaulted, which was coincidentally around the age where girls start to develop sexual feelings in the first place. Female sexuality and genetalia felt horrifying to me as my only experience with that stuff was completely devastating, and I felt that being female was condemning me to a lifetime of this. Of course I wasn't putting two and two together, but I started having feelings that I desperately wanted to be a man and to have male genitals. Couple that with already being a tomboyish girl who was regularly told I looked like I boy and you have the perfect recipe for FtT. I imagine this happens to a lot of people - actually, I know from hearing their stories - and it's a really fucking tragedy IMO.
I was fortunate enough to have a therapist who was an older woman and still had "radical" feminist ideas. She really encouraged me to look at the root what was causing me to reject my feminine identity. IMO this kind of therapy should be the first thing that people with gender identity undergo. It took a long time, but with the patience and understanding of a professional I was able to come to terms with my identity and am now really happy being female. I know I'm an anecdote but at the very least this approach should be attempted before just delving into transitioning and hormones and all that, because more often than not there's an underlying cause that can be worked out.
Christ I wrote a lot sorry for the wall of text
No. 68828
>>68816The increase in people transitioning without the requirement of psych evaluations or even a DSM 5 diagnosis of dysphoria is due informed consent model of care has been replacing the gatekeeping model in recent years.
Medical journal reading:
http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2016/11/sect1-1611.htmlOp-ed reading:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/03/11/transgender_patients_and_informed_consent_who_decides_when_transition_treatment.html No. 68832
>>68816> IMO this kind of therapy should be the first thing that people with gender identity undergo.Exactly. Some detransitioners have said that they never went through any sort of counselling, the doctors just kind of listened to them and admitted them to HRT and SRS. It wasn't until some time after transitioning they realized that the root cause for their body dysphoria was in a traumatic experience or other psychological issues. And the trans activists are demanding that all counseling should be removed and people should have access to transitioning whenever they please.
I used to be the same as you anon, I was sure that I had the "wrong kind of brain" and believed it was fully a biological thing and transitioning would be the only way to medicate it. I swallowed the "unless you transition, you will kill yourself!" narrative hook, line and sinker. I was afraid for my life. But after a long while of self-exploring and overall observing the trans ideology with a more critical way of thinking I started to realize that my problems with my gender were stemming from early childhood rejection, sexual harassment, abusive relationships and internalized homophobia. After that my gender dysphoria started to fade little by little, and soon I realized I was completely comfortable being a woman.
These stories are so ridiculously common and I've seen transmen straight out admit that they're disgusted with the idea of being a woman due to being traumatized but still believe transitioning is the only way to go. What girl doesn't freak out when her body changes during puberty and she starts bleeding from her vagina? Female sexual biology and sexuality in general is still being a taboo to some degree and women have to suffer through regular acts of degrading sexism all the time. It's no wonder we grab at the opportunity to become a man.
No. 68835
>>68767I know a sweet ftm who I thought was just short, extremely babyfaced guy until he politely asked me to stop calling him that and explained. His subdued behavior and the way he dresses in a smart casual way gives him a passing vibe rather than his natural looks, but I think he works out and might have had top surgery or wear a binder. Instead of his gender being his whole personality he just talks about normal stuff like films etc. He doesn't fit into either of
>>68779 types as he also is a supportive boyfriend and has lesbian friends, so doesn't come across as misogynistic or homophobic. 10/10 would date
But then I've seen lots of that "Type 2" grossly gay-fetishistic yaoi play and misogynist behavior from fakeboi types at anime conventions who absolutely never pass because they wear slogan pronoun Tshirts and pastel kawaii stuff. I don't have a problem with androgyny or men wearing makeup, I love the idea of breaking gender norms with fashion! But the insistence that they aren't a woman because they don't adhere to their own internalized stereotypes of a woman whilst conversely insisting that gender is a social construct so boys can have vaginas and wear lipstick just doesn't make any sense. I agree that those kinds of mtf seem to be more interested in 2edgy wish fulfillment coupled with internalized misogyny instead of 'just being a man'.
My experiences with mtf are the same.
I have a close mtf friend who sometimes I have to agree to disagree with, especially on what it is to 'feel like a woman' and I struggle with seeing them as a lesbian woman after all these years of seeing them as my straight guy friend. However our friendship has been unaffected by and I want to support them as they begin to transition. I also used to hang out with a nice mtf at a weekly group who clearly wasn't a biological woman and similarly there's a three obvious mtf where I work but they act like normal professional people, and as none of them have ever brought up the topic of being trans I have never questioned them about it. I respect them for it because it must be hard being stared at all the time when you're just trying to do your job, and I appreciate that they are more than just their gender.
However I have also had lots of run ins with stereotypical mtf with rainbow socks, neon lipstick with bare ungroomed face and dyed pixie cuts who scream about their girldicks, and those types are always obnoxious as fuck no matter their genitals. It's not even the visual part of them, I've seen unrelated events be overtaken with them preaching about their sexual validation as a woman via catcalls as if that's in any way comparable to being a woman or other fetishistic crusades and seen them try to hit on much younger girls in a predatory way that implies it's transphobic to reject them. I'm also acquaintances with two "nonbinary" guys who are the embodiment of male entitlement. One is literally always manspreading as he rants about hating white males, whilst his SJW girlfriend obidiently nods and cooks his vegan tendies.
As always, it is the crazies that scream the loudest. I'm definitely gender critical but the trans people that I am friends with are just people getting on with their lives and don't seem to be sucked into to the weird 'gender is a social construct except girls wear pink bimbo implants and boys wear blue snapbacks' rhetoric. It seems like trans people might be facing similar fracturing as the lib/rad feminism, with the relatively normal ones being drowned out by the autogynephiles shrieking about chestfeeding and ladyboners.
No. 68886
>>68848I used to joke about him being a short babyfaced guy because I'm an asshole. Eventually he quietly explained the reason is that he wasn't born biologically male.
>>68859They explained they are ftm
No. 68894
>>68890>Asks someone to stop making jokes that make them uncomfortable, and gives context.He's probably already insecure enough as it is, and
>>68886 charactertized her own behavior as assholeish.
Of all the stories in this thread, it's amazing that you chose this one to be a bitch about.
No. 68918
>>68909>Not that anonSure thing, dude.
You're acting just as retarded anyway because this is about an FtM and not MtF.
No. 68936
>>68909I'm the anon with the trans friend, not them.
It's your choice to disagree with trans completely, I also have concerns, but telling people to leave just because their gender critical ideas aren't exactly as radical as yours is childish. It's difficult enough to ask questions anywhere without being completely dismissed as being worse than hitler etc but now we're not allowed to talk because our nuanced viewpoints aren't terfy enough for your completely black and white ones?
Ignore or argue by all means, but trying to silence opposition makes you as bad as those trans types that dismiss every criticism as transphobic
No. 68942
File: 1507824287779.jpg (262.06 KB, 1069x1120, Screenshot_20171012-105607.jpg)
Anyone know the real details on this?
No. 68949
>>68942i looked the law up. it's ontario based, not canada-wide and the gender stuff isn't singled out as a criteria, it's part of a bunch, and it relates to adoption and social services to children, not really taking kids away
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=4479
>Differences include: the current Act includes the child’s cultural background in this list while the new Act includes the child’s cultural and linguistic heritage; the current Act includes the religious faith in which the child is being raised while the new Act includes the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, disability, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression.
>The society having care of a child shall choose a residential placement for the child that,>where possible, respects the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression;
>While parents may need help in caring for their children, that help should give support to the autonomy and integrity of the family unit and, wherever possible, be provided on the basis of mutual consent.
>The least disruptive course of action that is available and is appropriate in a particular case to help a child, including the provision of prevention services, early intervention services and community support services, should be considered.the news sounds kinda sensationalist. it's not like someone will take your kid away because you refuse to call them xirs and solaireselves
No. 68997
>>68984Honestly, I think it's just another sign of how fucking alien female lives are to them. I would have thought that conclusion was like, over the top radfem nonsense a few years back, but at this point, after knowing wayyyyyy too many lefty dudes who get weirdly intense about trans politics, I think that's it. They'd never put it this way, but they can see the perspective of a MtF person as a fellow male person–but they cannot fucking imagine what it might be like to be a female person, to live through the shit we live through, to know how invisible it is to men, and to wonder, perhaps, if maybe it might not be best to immediately allow everyone with a penis to decide what "woman" means now. They just think we're a bunch of cruel bitches/haggy dykes/icky mean 70s feminists who all just hate fun. It's easier than actually listening.
No. 68999
Anyone struggling with male friends who've come out as nb/MtF? I have a friend–sweet guy, great person–but he's come out as nb and it's….hard. He's from an affluent town, grew up into science/math/gaming, has a tech job, is dating a "queer" girl…and just like, in general, has lived a pretty easy life. But now he's nb and I have to sit here and act like he's moved closer on some "spectrum" towards my experience, when I'm sitting here knowing that his life is just like every other geeky dude I've ever known, and that he has not moved any closer to understanding my experiences just because he's dyed his hair pink. I'm glad he feels able to express himself (fashion wise especially) more freely now, I guess I'm glad that he feels like he has…idk, the permission to do so now. But I resent having to tacitly accept, when I use they/them for him, a worldview that has no fucking application to my life as a woman. I want to scream at him, sometimes. Blah blah oh you're trans, oh I have "cis privilege," that's great, but only one of us got catcalled as we walked to the train stop this morning and it wasn't fucking you.
No. 69005
>>69004Yeah. Every year that goes by, I understand how so many 2nd wavers grew disillusioned with wider leftism. They were treated with the same shit. For the blah blah about radical leftism, so many of these guys still want someone around whose job it is to fuck them, clean for them, and raise their kids. Radical feminism shakes the core of their world, but in a really intimate way most men aren't prepared to deal with. It demands they take a serious look at their moms, wives, sisters, and the shit they went through for the sake of the men around them, and to DO something about. To CHANGE, even if it just means like, fucking doing the dishes more often. And they can't deal. I mean fuck, just think of radfem politics around porn–that's such a HUGE part of so many men's lives and personas, and radfeminism critiques it. So they can call themselves whatever lefty term they want, but at the end of the day, they can't fucking deal with women as actual people. They hate capitalism, but also, they want a mommy to suck their dick and wash their socks.
To editorialize a little, I see this in just how many trans women there are online who go hard into leftism, but treat it as a sort of fandom–like all the "Emily. 27. Trans dyke. Anarcho communist." types you see. It's easy for male people to get into leftism-as-fandom in this way, and just act like any woman talking about, idk, domestic labor, is just an EVIL REACTIONARY TERF. Which, to be pedantic, is really especially fucking stupid because MARX AND ENGELS THEMSELVES wrote about woman-as-a-class as the foundation of capitalism. Engels wrote A WHOLE FUCKING BOOK ABOUT IT.
It's all very radical and smashing capitalism until someone dares to talk about care work and maternal health and so much other shit that impacts so many billions of women around the world in dire ways. No, that's not relatable to some fucking 20-something dude with a software engineering job who may or may not be wearing one of those heart-shaped bondage chokers. So instead they scream about terfs.
No. 69012
>>69009What is it about the computer science field that attracts so many trannies? I have to take a few courses in it as a requirement for my accounting degree, and the class I'm in right now has 3 of them out of 28 students. Far above the supposed figures of 0.1-1% of the population being transgender that I've seen cited.
Is it the lack of required engagement with the public like they would need to do if they were lawyers or teachers? You'd think all the binary code would
trigger them.
No. 69076
>>690193rd worlder here
It's true, sort of, but needs context. A lot of trannies end up in prostitution because they're poor, or because their families dont accept them, or because they can't find work anywhere else - and you can probably guess that the men that seek them out aren't exactly 100% sane or comfortable with their sexuality. Because they don't interact with trannies during real life hours, they see them less like humans and more like a bizarre, shameful fetish. It gets violent often.
These trannies aren't any less autogynephilic than others, and in that regard I have no respect for them. They act exactly like gay males, not like women. However, they also don't deserve to be forced into prostitution, or to be abused and killed.
It's a tough subject because one has to reconcile their justified dislike for trans"ness" as a concept but acknowledge their situation. I don't think this is relevant for sjw narrative and it's disgusting that they try to use these people to push and justify their agenda.
>doubt trans women in those countries pass even the slightest bit, so I don't really think they will be attackedIt means they're more likely to be attacked. They don't look much like women but you can tell they're trying to, they end up looking like circus freaks who are neither here nor there.
It's also relevant to note that "3rd world countries" are not the poor wastelands most people seem to think they are. We have middle class and rich people just like any other country. Trannies who are not poor don't have it any worse.
No. 69077
File: 1508081660706.jpg (901.58 KB, 3925x2208, IMG_3552.JPG)
From the article:
>'The most amazing moment was when I got my breasts and I could show them off – almost to prove to everyone that I was a woman,' she said.
>So far she has only had breast enhancement surgery and Botox injections in her lips – less intensive than the procedures which lay ahead. 'I want to concentrate on making my face a bit softer – taking away some of the harsh lines – it is more important for me to fix what everyone sees when I am outside before I change what's between my legs.'
So being a girl is about being a huge-titted bimbo? K. In all honestly I don't consider myself a TERF, but I absolutely hate reading shit like this. Women and the experience of being a woman are about more than just having breasts! People write and share these articles to show how progressive and accepting they are, but they don't think about how this attitude hinders women (especially those whom aren't hyper-feminine and don't fit into the traditional female gender roles) and how it promotes the gender dichotomy.
No. 69079
>>69077trans shit just reinforces gender roles, plain and simple. being a woman doesn't mean anything you know innately, it doesn't even have much to do with just being female. any experiences women have that reinforce them being a woman come from external sources. society, your every day experiences. it's not something you feel, it's something you're given, and told. it's someone holding the door for you, or someone refusing to listen to you, someone shouting obscene things at you, because you have breasts. the breasts, even the vagina does not make you a woman, the interactions you have with society do.
i just wish trannies would stop this irreversible dressup shit and concentrate on real gender issues. most of these men hate being men because of male gender roles? fix them, don't change you because you like women's better, we're over here trying to dismantle gender roles and these men come in pushing them on us even harder.
No. 69081
File: 1508086830589.jpg (37.05 KB, 500x631, 1495854642107.jpg)
I am a rather quiet radical feminist, yesterday at a family wedding I saw my niece who looks up to me (13, tomboy girl) wearing entirely men's clothes to the wedding. Maybe she likes men's fashion, and I'm supportive of that. I enjoy wearing it too, its important that both sides are willing to break gender norms without the reality-denial insistence that they are something they aren't.
I'm concerned she may or may not be pushed to transition, like most queer or "non-standard" young girls with access to tumblr (which she does). I don't want to message on facebook her and push her to the other side and have her transition out of spite or something… but I've been on the same medication they give to FTM girls during puberty. It really can fucking destroy your life and left me temporarily paralyzed (yet they wont recall that medication, thanks big pharma). I feel like I cannot just leave it be. I feel so lost on what to message her. how to tell her its okay and to not give into the peer pressure and it's okay to not subscribe to pre-defined bullshit.
No. 69094
How many Secret Radfems/Terfs do you guys think are out there? I wonder this a lot–I work in lefty/creative industry in a lefty town so I'm surrounded by trans people/sisters not cis-ters/etc, and everyone SEEMS to be in lockstep. But I was once too, a year or so ago, until I stumbled onto radfem tumblr and everything I saw there made sense. I keep it TOTALLY quiet, though, no one irl knows. So I find myself wondering, especially when something especially ridiculous happens (transphobic pussy hats/womb-carriers/denial of sexual dimorphism/the general insistence that there is literally no diff between cis and trans women except the unique trans experiences us cissies could never ever hope to understand)….how many other women are there that I know, rolling their eyes where no one can see?
And related…I wonder how long this kind of BS can go on. Do you see a backlash coming? I want to believe there will be, but like…then sometimes I think, no, there'll be a backlash against all this but it'll be super right wing and everyone will smear libfem shit as radfem and everyone will go on knowing jack shit about actual radical feminism.
No. 69096
File: 1508111018477.jpg (92.44 KB, 810x1024, DK2evrHXUAAxWSJ.jpg)
From:
https://twitter.com/AliceAvizandum/status/913560846730715136luv 2 watch these hyper horny/boring-ass kink game making/anarcho-communist LARPING/stealth rapist asshole eat their own
No. 69097
>>69078I'm not saying female prostitutes don't have it bad, just that with tranny prostitute clients there's an added layer of shame and disgust that's not as often present in the men who seek female prostitutes. They're killed a lot more often despite having a man's strength.
And as I said, they may not even be working and they're still obvious trannies in poor neighborhoods. Poor people aren't exactly known for their tolerance towards outcasts.
If you're a woman you're a second class citizen but you're still human. A tranny isn't even that. You don't need to be pro trans to acknowledge that they're in a shit situation, women at least get to live a semi-normal life even if they're poor. It's not always "it's either prostitution or die of starvation", you can get a shit job cleaning someone's house and raise your thousandth kid. But nobody will hire a tranny anywhere.
No. 69101
>>69097>>69078Oh and to add to this
>you said yourself trans and women both have it the same if they're richNo, obviously the trannies have it better, they're born male and also get to scream "opresshun!!!" at everything. But poor people are ruthless, and it gets worse when they're the majority of the population. I grew up in a poor city and I feared for my safety because I was
white. I can only imagine what it must be like to be a man in a wig and a dress in that environment.
No. 69102
>>69100read my fucking post and stop shitting up the thread. I'm not saying men have it worse than women, I'm saying that mentally ill men in this particular context have it worse than pretty much everyone. It's not a trans issue as much as it's a poverty and public health issue.
It's not comparable or related to middle class sjw lefty trans discussion and so it should not be used by trannies in 1st world countries to win oppression points.
sage for pretty much offtopic
No. 69108
File: 1508118102260.gif (982.3 KB, 320x287, 1458421590676.gif)
>>69101>I grew up in a poor city and I feared for my safety because I was whiteSo you know that in 3rd world countries white people have privileges, right? So basically people treated you more like a human no matter where (civilians or police) because you were white. Yet you say you were afraid because you were white. That's another load of bullshit right there.
No. 69109
Given that it sounds like we have a lot of international women here, anyone else fucking fed up with the discourse treating nonwhite/third world/etc countries and cultures like they had nooooo ideeeeaaa what sex was before white people came along and that it was all a multiple-gendered utopia? I come from one of the cultures people love to tout as having "third genders" and guess what, we definitely figured out how babies were made early on, and also, those who birth them have always been treated like shit and still are. This discourse drives me fucking crazy because the experience of women in my country CANNOT be talked about w/o talking about bodies, pregnancy, all that, and suddenly….I have so few English-speaking online places to do that in.
The Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie thing really was the last straw for me. Women like us don't need to be "enlightened" by Western (and lbr, white) gender politics, we need to be listened to. Maybe our experience of gender CANNOT BE DISCUSSED AS SEPARATE FROM OUR BODIES. But no, we can't have ANYTHING to teach a bunch of white males about our experience. We have to bow to them. In the meantime, my 14-year-old cousin will get pregnant by a 30-year-old because of how shit our culture is towards women.
People like to scream "TERFS ARE ALL WHITE!!!!" but radical feminism is the only kind that speaks to me a fucking brown woman from a poor country.
No. 69112
File: 1508122224102.jpg (57.88 KB, 639x629, DMESr-3V4AUFvRk.jpg)
Tfw a confessed rapist is speaking at the women's March. How very progressive. Ironically he raped a transman
No. 69115
>>69107>>69106You don't get it, I'm equating them with the mentally retarded and the untreated schizophrenic. As far as I'm concerned they belong on the same group - incapable of looking after themselves and suffering because of it. I said it time and again, I'm not talking about their "transness" because it's irrelevant in this discussion where we're talking about individuals with enough education to know what they're doing. Poor trannies don't know what they're doing. They're retarded. Clearer now?
>>69108>da whitey no discriminated, muh people only one who suffer>>>tumblrYou've clearly never been to a poor enough place, poor people of color into organized crime tend to create closed communities where they look after their own and distrust/dislike everyone else. I'm aware white people have privileges generally speaking, I'm not saying I was ~oppressed, just that I was constantly threatened by a group who happened to have control where I lived. Anyone who wasn't part of the group or didn't conform lived in fear - gay, white, asian, man in dress, bookworm, non-Christian, the list goes on. It's not systematic so it's not about privileges or racism
No. 69120
>>69109Oh yes, especially when they bring up this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_poshParents who can't conceive a son dress their daughter up as a boy, whether she likes it or not, so that she could attend school, work and live a free life. Tumblr SJWs act like this is some sort of a progressive view of gender and applaud it, when it's literally because women aren't worth shit in their society and the only way for them to have some quality to their lives they need to disguise as men.
>>69077fucking kill me now
No. 69140
File: 1508181606706.jpg (78.72 KB, 965x584, 86f3f0ad-24e0-48e8-bcb9-d3d0e5…)
where's the lie
No. 69166
>>69165Oooh, let's catalogue the contents of an Alt-y Terf-Hunting Transbian. Alice McTechSupportJob.
-rainbow socks
-fingerless gloves
-many chokers
What else?
No. 69167
File: 1508218531368.jpeg (224.5 KB, 640x707, C6347D36-807C-4BD3-8C55-7540DE…)
Hey men, unsure of how to support women? Start by supporting men who feel like women.
No. 69168
>>69166schoolgirl skirt
shiny and stuff ebay cosplay wig
flaky drugstore eyeliner
matronly, ill-fitting dresses
walmart perfume to mask natural male BO
No. 69174
File: 1508223627819.jpg (24.81 KB, 460x276, Diana-Rakipi-a-Burrnesha--008.…)
>>69109The whole "other cultures have third gender/multi gender etc, whites have invented oppressive binary system" is such bullshit. It's mostly similar as
>>69120 - either families who couldn't get a son, disguise their daughter as male because women aren't worth shit in their society. Here is another example from Albania:
Albanian sworn virgins aka "Burnesha"
>The Kanun dictates that families must be patrilineal (meaning wealth is inherited through a family's men) and patrilocal (upon marriage, a woman moves into the household of her husband's family). Women are treated like property of the family. Under the Kanun women are stripped of many rights. They cannot smoke, wear a watch, or vote in their local elections. They cannot buy land, and there are many jobs they are not permitted to hold. There are even establishments that they cannot enter.
>A woman becomes a sworn virgin by swearing an irrevocable oath, in front of twelve village or tribal elders, to practice celibacy. Then she is allowed to live as a man and may dress in male clothes, use a male name, carry a gun, smoke, drink alcohol, take on male work, act as the head of a household (for example, living with a sister or mother), play music and sing, and sit and talk socially with men.
>Sworn virgins could also participate in blood feuds. If a sworn virgin was killed in a blood feud her death counted as a full life for the purposes of calculating blood money, rather than the half a life ordinarily accorded for a female death.[11]Again, a woman only manages to get rights and worth, but she has to do a "transition" and her body is being policed by men.
Tumblr loves Burnesha because they are believed to be the only formal transgender role in Europe. They don't see the misogyny behind it at all, as long as it fits their transgender narrative.
No. 69179
File: 1508242369990.jpg (116.39 KB, 720x783, b7587eb5-702b-4fc7-a299-a2c441…)
>>69171These people are out of touch with reality
No. 69194
>>69169Yeah, one of the biggest schisms I feel like I notice between MtFs and cis women–and libfemmy stuff/trans feminism vs. rad feminism–is over sex and sex positivity. On the one hand, you have us, the first women to grow up in an era of COMPLETELY OMNIPRESENT porn/fetish/etc, plus libfem ideas telling us that poledancing classes are super feminist, those icky old 70s dykes just didn't like fun, lipstick is empowering, etc etc. So we're reaching adulthood and realizing, actually, that growing up in this culture was really hard and fucked us up in a lot of ways and we want to talk about it. On the other hand, you have these MtF "transbians" who grew up as straight boys, and often nerdy ones, who sucked down porn and like, fetishy jiggly moe shit that portrays women as sexy kittenish grade schoolers, from an early age, and now they're ~women~ and "into feminism" but they fundamentally cannot understand a feminism/womanhood that is uncomfortable with porn/objectification b/c whether they say so or not…their conception of themselves and their sexuality is completely built upon consuming these porny images of women, and not growing up as the person being consumed. Weirdest symbol of this I notice: I know so few cis women into moe anime/games, but I know SO MANY transbians who are. Like, how many transbian twitter accounts have a seen where the tl is just a wall of blushing catgirl schoolgirls who turn into tanks or whatever shyly scissoring each other or w/e.
This is the first time I've typed out these thoughts I've had swirling around in my head for a while. Does this seem right to anybody else?
No. 69315
File: 1508466098420.jpg (103.57 KB, 540x405, fa1b5fdd-747c-4651-84e2-c5d785…)
Who do you ladies think is the most annoying Trans activist/Anti terf? I despise Zinnia Jones. Man has the such a punchable face.
No. 69330
>>68984I'm a gender critical socialist.
I get flak for it sometimes, but we're definitely making headway on leftypol. I used to get banned all the time (pretty sure board owner is a tranny) but now I get plenty of people agreeing with me. Stick around.
No. 69355
Out of anything, my hugest issues with trans stuff is seeing people tell lesbians to "evaluate" why they don't like dick, or saying they're TERFs for not liking peen, and talking over majority (cis) female experiences and/or assuming the trans/becoming feminine experience=the female experience.
Like, all of this "omg dresses! omg sexy animu girl!" is _not_ about being female. I also hate it when people say trans women are more female than cis women, or "better" somehow. It feels like I can't discuss the possibility of negative feelings about one's assigned sex making someone want to be a different gender, rather than sex dysphoria, and how that should be dealt with using therapy as much as possible instead of giving hormones and surgery.
I'm saying all of this as someone who would date a trans woman and has a lot of trans friends. We need to be critical and allowed to be critical when it comes to people discussing gender in _feminism_, a movement about gender/sex and subjugation.
I don't see myself as a TERF at all, just a critically thinking, LGBT-positive feminist, but a lot of people will jump your ass for not falling into step. ._.
No. 69403
>>69094I'm a secret radfem/gender critical. I have been since 2013. I work in lefty/creative industry too and am surrounded by all kinds of special identity people, pretend gays, non binaries, trans people. I am actually familiar with some rather significant activists here where I live. I hang around in radical left circles.
No one knows. I guess my career could be ruined if anyone did. Though I have taken distance with some people, and keep it up with some, because I can't stand the misogyny and homophobia. I have sometimes gotten into trouble for voicing some opinions too loudly. And it's funny, after some time the same people who got mad at me started saying same things I did, after those opinions became fashionable in queer circles… Like for example the are straight aces queer thing.
So yes we are here. We just can't know how many of us, since we have to keep quiet for our jobs.
No. 69465
>>67378I read the Scum Manifesto by Valeries Solanas and it shook my perception of the world.
Then I went to read a blog called FactCheckMe where I learned a lot, and tried to read Beauvoir but quit early on as the vocabulary was hard to understand for me.
I have been reading a bit of Pornography by Andrea Dworkin, but the stuff we need to deal with and confront just by learning the truth is so upsetting that I've stopped a while ago and went on to read technical non-fiction lol
I try to understand why I feel and think the way I do, but something visceral is at stake when I think about this.
I suspect very much that I am a TERF, but the only two times I talked explicitly about it, with this label, men were around and I was treated as someone to be silenced ASAP.
One of them is my (guy) friend for a long time, and terribly smart, but started immediately trying to find women who did wrong too!1!1!
The other time I was in an online leftist party Discord, and was told they didn't want TERFs there, a lurking tranny came out of the woods to say I was afraid trannies would steal all men or some similar shit lol, one of the guys I was working with told me disagreed with me but refused to talk any further about it, and another guy just told me not to talk about it at all - while he was available to use my work, he wasn't available to have me voice my concerns.
i
So I'm surprised at the amount of people who hold similar views here, hugs to you all! I wish I had one of you iRL to spin with, as Daly says.
So now I shut up, but I am absolutely not letting any men fuck me, and if I find one in my fucking bathroom peeing standing I might have to leave. They better pass. These entitled men don't want to acknowledge that the narrative of rape starts with a dick being waved, and and our safety is more important than their fucking delusions of what the hell a woman, something they never were, will be, or ever experience, is.
I have no issues with trannies being married, having a home, or healthcare, like any other human. But that they imagine they have the right to be given access to female spaces, and even vaginas, is just a reflection of the rights they are born with as men and that they imagine they retain when they cut their dicks off or put on a dress.
Any further proof that trannies aren't women is given by themselves, when they prance around in completely stereotypical ways; only a (very dumb) man would imagine that having a fuckhole and putting on a dress is enough to be a woman.
>>67378 No. 69475
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everything about this rubs the wrong way.
No. 69503
File: 1508788648054.jpg (211.17 KB, 1080x1920, CuKzF0g.jpg)
i really hope this is a joke
No. 69505
>>69229The right and the left react to each other. A lot of conservatives get snarky about environmentalism, a lot of progressives get snarky about family values. Realistically, it's kind of weird to hate either of those things.
When libfems assimilated trans activism they aligned themselves with strategic essentialists pushing a narrative that there are male and female brains, and if you act/dress/look like the sex opposed to your brain sex it makes you suicidal. When conservatives react to this, they often take a conventionally feminist position by accident.
>>69504Valerie Solanas is a meme, and only worth your time if you want to schlick to hardcore femdom.
Dworkin's insightful, but radical enough that really buying into her stuff can alienate you from a lot of people. If you want to get into radical feminism go ahead, but imo it just contributes to feeling resentful and powerless.
No. 69531
>>69081I think if I was born a few years later, I might have actually been trans so I can explain to you what made me snap out of going down that route.
So around the age of 11/12 (similar to your cousin) I was being bullied for starting puberty early. I started to hate the idea of growing breasts and getting periods and becoming a woman. I think, if someone had been kind to me, I wouldn’t have hated my body so much and wouldn’t have considered the changes happening to me to be shameful. Young girls are expected to grow up fast now and of course wearing stripper outfits and 10 layers of makeup before you’ve even hit puberty is going to feel foreign and make you consider you might be trans. I figured that if I didn’t like tanning, false eyelashes and lacy bras that I wasn’t like “other girls”. I didn’t realise that girls had all kinds of interests.
Around that time, I also discovered feminism. At that time, feminists were discussing real issues like illiteracy in girls worldwide, arranged marriages, societal pressures and expectations, gender pay gap, sexual harassment…you know, things that are actually important. A lot of feminist blogs I followed were really critical of the new trans trend and instead supported the idea that women should look like and do whatever they want. At that time I realised that I didn’t need to be a boy to wear boy’s clothing or like tv shows and games that were “for boys”. As a teenager, I was constantly discouraged from pursuing things that people perceived as “manly” like the sciences or sports in favour of things like art and languages. Now, I’m working in a science field. I almost missed out on that opportunity because my shitty school and relatives kept telling me my “girl brain” wasn’t able for it and I believed them. Ultimately, I just came to realise that you can be a girl and like “boy” things at the same time. Mind blown.
Also tans people always tend to be in communities. Almost all of my friends who are a few years younger than me are trans/non-binary/agender/whatever because they all influence and encourage each other to do it. When you're in a community like that, nobody stops to question you if you’re doing something bad. If she has friends like that, it’s a warning sign. I’d gift her something that makes her aspire to being a badass woman. For example, there’s a really cool book out called “Rejected Princesses” that’s all about real women throughout history who achieved great things but are rarely taught in history class. Imo people who are trans think it will be “easier” to be the other gender because it will be more acceptable for a trans girl to play with dolls or a trans boy to play football. Feminism taught me that it’s way better to own the fact that you’re a woman with all kinds of interests and stand up to people who tell you that it’s not right than just to accept what they’re saying and aspire to have an easier life. I fucking love it when people are surprised by what I do for a living. All girls should get that feeling when they talk about their interests. And boys, too. I think it’s rad when little boys know how to cook for themselves or when they’re really caring towards siblings.
If you speak to her again sometime soon, try saying positive things about the changes happening to her body (“Wow, you’re getting so tall! That’s great!”) and compliment her on her unique hobbies (whatever they might be!). Let her know that GIRLS like herself don’t have to like everything they’re expected to do and use yourself as an example, “I don’t like tanning but I still look great! I didn’t do home economics in school but I got a great job!” Praise her for being a tomboy because it’s clearly part of her personality. Never put her down for “masculine” interests but never put her down for “feminine” interests either. It’s all about positive reinforcement. If she looks up to you, she’s going to really value your opinion.
I know that’s really long but your post hit really close to home and I really hope it helps. I’m sure your cousin is a really cool kid and I want her to know that.
No. 69550
File: 1508925925168.jpg (39.97 KB, 320x494, 70392d283c8d3a343a87f6e6c372fe…)
Transpeople really have such an unhealthy fixation with validation that they'd resent being excluded from the sexual harrassment that ciswomen are subject to.
No. 69622
>>69616Idk if you're
>>69605 or not but they said that they're fine with it, which is gross. The idea that trans people have to overcompensate for not being able to be a gender stereotype is appalling.
No. 69694
>>69683It's the same for me. I was always wary of calling myself a feminist until I learned about radical feminism. I know it's super clichéd to say it but the radfem ideology honestly opened my eyes. It's meant to liberate and protect women and that's what feminism should be about, not the intersectional liberal type of bullshit that's more about serving trannies and muslims than women.
>>69684I envy you for your pure, optimistic and inexperienced outlook on the issue.
No. 69718
File: 1509336717870.png (345.35 KB, 553x890, tumblr_oyki5nUBHu1v4yu0bo1_128…)
courtesy of pronounrespecter on tumblr
No. 69817
>>69803>>69805>>69806Lol taking that obvious bait.
Also obviously relationships/sex aren't the only thing in life that matter but to most people they are important aspects.
No. 69901
File: 1509769701036.jpg (139.62 KB, 627x497, gross.jpg)
fave thing about it is that he still posts shit like this all the time. How can you rant about how ~hard it is for men and women will never understand~ while still trying to be a woman?
No. 69935
>>69901Why do these people act like the gatekeepers of loneliness? Is it a scientific fact that women can't experience loneliness now?
I haven't had a friend since freshman year of high school. Graduated college, no friend or boyfriend the entire time I was there. I go to work, I come home, read or watch films. Go to sleep. The only human interaction I have is at work. It's been well over 5 years (more like 11), and I still haven't killed myself. Is what I've experienced not loneliness? Am I a man now?
Also I love how they act like sex is a cure all for all problems. As if being able to get sex easily means that you automatically can't be lonely, because I'm sure casual sex with a dude who doesn't even care about you makes you feel SO less alone. Ridiculous.
Sorry for the slight blog post, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. I see incels repeat this shit alllll the time.
No. 70183
File: 1510600750442.jpg (65.95 KB, 696x464, ew.jpg)
So this gross, narcissistic piece of shit threw a strop on twitter about not being allowed to use the female changing rooms in Topshop. Now Topshop is changing its changing rooms to become gender neutral.
I don't even have anything against the concept of opening more unisex spaces - as long as the women and men only spaces still exist for those who want them. I'm just literally so fucking sick of it being demanded by and acquiesced to these whiny, entitled wannabe divas.
No. 70216
File: 1510653784752.png (3.31 MB, 1800x1200, travisalabanza.png)
>>70215But he posted these pictures with the caption "Going as a 15 year old yt gal for Halloween" on Twitter but he has deleted them when people noticed what a creep he is.
No. 70264
>>69898>>69871>>69856>>69853really hope your rapists/abusers fall for the SRS meme and end up with a painful necrotic transbussy and chronic urinary tract infections
and remember, suicide rates have been shown to increase post-transition, so if they do transition you might get lucky! sad thing is they sound like crusty autogynophilic freaks so they might not, but hey, you can always hope their dick shrivels up because of hrt and they wind up alone, ostracised and chemically castrated in 5-10 years when this bullshit stops being trendy :]
No. 70270
>>70264But what if it doesn't stop being trendy ? What if this will actually become the norm ?
That's what I'm afraid of. I'm not saying everything was great before that, but to see people like this get away with it because people see it like ~muh gay stigma~ there was before but fail to see this is different.
You can do whatever you want at home, but seeing people like this want to change everything so they feel better than ~horrible cis people~ makes me scared.
No. 70273
File: 1510767676374.png (166.8 KB, 429x410, anglo.png)
Tbh. I hope both terfs/radfems and trans fuckos get fucking beheaded
No. 70317
File: 1510862857075.png (58.46 KB, 400x264, tumblr_oyxq9aNfTG1wz3drgo1_400…)
>>orgasmic childbirth
No. 70322
File: 1510867389545.jpg (129.37 KB, 400x300, tentacles.jpg)
>>70317I want to give that thing the benefit of the doubt that he meant 'organic', but knowing trannies, he meant exactly what he wrote. Disgusting.
No. 70327
>>70317Fucking why man
I’m terrified of my impending labour, does he want to swap?
No. 70331
>>70330I read the link, it doesn’t sound like the changes in brain structure were negative ones?
Sage for curious OT
No. 70371
>>70370he meant orgasmic.
there has been speculation that the missing women are the results of drs experimenting with womb implantation.
No. 70678
>>70663No, because I think the general argument is that politics/society as a whole has always been a male construct, ergo the “norm” is male. Women’s officers are needed because their experiences are outside the norm.
>living as a trans woman is not the same as living as a womanThis. It will never ever be the same, and I don’t particularly want a man pretending to be a woman speaking for me. At least when cismen were doing it it was from an admitted position of (arguably sexist) ignorance.
No. 70756
File: 1511654485793.jpg (27.74 KB, 650x366, 0b378fa4-9f4b-4e60-b9bb-f1cbfa…)
If TERFs were wrong then this wouldn't exist:
>>>/g/70585t. antifem but getting TERFpilled from observing troonacy
No. 70956
>>70942I don't really understand what you're getting at or decide what you want to hear in response, can you expand a bit on your point?
Are they talking about how it was a terrible experience? Are they trivialising it? Where's your cap or source?
No. 70963
>>70956Sorry, I don’t think I was really expecting anything in particular in response. I just see a lot of anger against MtF for their appropriation of gendered experiences/spaces etc, and then randomly come across a FtM doing it (which I haven’t seen before).
Fail for caps, I was on my laptop yesterday and now I’m on my phone - there’s hundreds of entries on that site and I’d have no idea where to start. There was no trivialisation, just the fact that there are plenty of places for her to talk about being raped, why intrude on one of the few men can go to be brutally honest about their experience?
No. 70964
>>70963No I'm sorry, I realise my post reads really defensively.
I'm curious about the response to it, even if people maybe didn't voice their opinions that openly. Most people want to write about those experiences somewhere they feel a part of (eg girls vent on /g/) but even if they feel like a man, this seems like unnecessarily opening themselves to to rejection.
The male survivors forum seems to have a gai/bi/trans survivors subforum, I wonder whether the gay men all feel ok being bundled in with transmen, and removed from the straight?
No. 70971
I think that the prevailing views, both pro and contra, are wrong because both are lacking the understanding of the crux of the nature of the trans issue. It is not psychological in root, it is sociological and economical.
Feminism originally rose from the worker's movement and is inseparable from it. The relationship between the sexes in all cultures and throughout all history is defined by the division of labour between them (such as men work, women cook).
Communists and socialists first recognized this and were the pioneers of women's rights, but as capitalism triumphed over them winning the Cold War, the movement was stripped of it's essence.
The issue of gender in capitalism is just one of the myriad of socio-economical issues capitalism delegated to the individual (with such tools as "identity politics"). Post-cold war generations, for example, will become vegan instead of organizing to topple the meat industry with it's inhumane conditions. Much like people of that same generation will change their own gender instead of striving to change gender stereotypes and roles.
So, trans people are not people with mental issues*. Both cis and trans people are people with social issues with gender roles (ie. division of labour between genders). They're not sick. The system is sick.
*Anything not fitting the moras of the modern capitalist society deemed "a disorder" these days. It makes you believe you personally are the problem and stops you from finding faults in your surroundings. You are given "help" to "fit in" in the form of therapy and pills. Much like - no, exactly like - in Huxley' s Brave New World.
This is the first time I'm conveying these thoughts to other people. Not sure how well I conveyed my point. Please ask me for clarification, even better challenge my points, or at least state your reaction. I really really want to hone/change my stance and/or my delivery according to the feedback.
No. 70972
File: 1512128944272.jpg (41.34 KB, 474x600, l9KlS4K_d.jpg)
>>70971Shit, I should've at least posted an eye-catching picture with that, now I'm afraid nobody's going to thoroughly read my wall of text.
Here, have a socio-economically-aware funny pic as an incentive. Please read my whole post.
No. 70973
>>70971Samefag, sorry, I just realized I accidentally deleted the end point of this paragraph while editing my post:
>The issue of gender in capitalism is just one of the myriad of socio-economical issues capitalism delegated to the individual (with such tools as "identity politics"). Post-cold war generations, for example, will become vegan instead of organizing to topple the meat industry with it's inhumane conditions. Much like people of that same generation will change their own gender instead of striving to change gender stereotypes and roles.Individual efforts bring only individual, limited results. The capitalist society is effectively quashing any movement that poses a real threat to it by making people internalize the problems (and supposed solutions) they face in this system, and thus correcting themselves, instead of organizing to correct the system. Also
>They're [trans people] not sick. The system is sick. They're not sick. But they are a symptom of a sick society.
No. 70981
>>70964That’s the weird thing about that site - no one ever responds to posts. So these guys are just venting their deepest secrets out into nothingness. Kinda makes me feel like that trans-man was looking for…something but ended up being treated like every other guy on there. I get the comparison to /g/ though. Just think there’s also plenty of undedicated communities (like Tumblr) where a transman could speak about their experiences and receive support. I agree with you that it seemed unnecessary.
I didn’t notice that. I wonder too. There seems to be a lot on there fighting with their sexuality tbh, I don’t see the need for separation.
No. 70982
>>70971Never thought of it that way, but now I can't unsee it.
Would I be off course in thinking that transgenderism is tied to the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in capitalism? They are doing what they can do to change themselves before trying to change the system of gender roles. It seems like that's what good little worker drones are raised to do.
No. 70996
>>70973>>70971not sure i entirely agree. i think trans as dysphoria is just dysphoria about sex organs and needs to be treated like dypshoria of anything else (don't get rid of it, get rid of the psychosis) but i agree about every other aspect, gender as a concept creates the whole 'grass is greener' thing.
it's funny how america pioneered the whole mutilation tactic for 'trans' people, other countries that have 'trans' people are just doing so to get rid of gays. but i guess the us is in love with genital mutilation (forced circumcision on minors, labioplasty, vaginaplasty and pressuring women after giving birth into all them etc) so…
No. 71004
>>70997Not giving you shit for it, but it’s not quite the same. The meat industry is a tangible thing that would definitely be defunct if everyone stopped eating meat. Gender roles are social concepts that will always exist because they created around tangible things (like physical appearance, personality traits, etc). It would be more apt to liken the vegan example to trying to eradicate biological sex.
Sage for definitely-a-vegan sperg.
No. 71010
Id like to start out that I support gender abolition. I don’t quite agree with sex ops or transitioning, but I respect and support it as long as it’s not without years of screening, prep and guidance to make absolutely sure it’s the right decision because if that’s what they really want to do, that’s up to them. I don’t think people should get so hung up on dressing their part because it seems trivial. Women already get this privilege to some degree, but not so much with men.
Men identifying as men should be able to dress effeminately and I think men like this often confuse themselves for being transsexual when they just like feminine things. Same for women who just like to wear masculine things.
I think a disassociating with the sex they’re born with is a legitimate thing, though, and people wishing to transition should be taken seriously and accepted into the sex they want to become after however long it takes to make sure the decision is really what they want.
I don’t think some people truly understand how much goes into being trans. People don’t just wake up one day, and snip of their dicks and throw on a skirt. It’s a long, difficult, crushing process and it’s making lives a lot harder than it needs to be by writing them off as all of those perverts trying to take advantage of the trans spotlight.
I support trans people wholeheartedly and I do agree that trans women should be allowed to use women’s restrooms. In fact, I’m sure that there already are trans women that use them that no one notices because no ones going to be looking at their dick/post-op vagina when they’re peeing.
There’s a difference between perverted men dressing up as women and trans women. I have a friend that has only ever wanted to be a woman. She wants to date guys and wear skirts, but she can’t do any of that without being afraid of getting her ass kicked and I think that, if she were to use a male assigned restroom when in feminine clothing, she’d very well get killed. All because some women who probably couldn’t tell if not for the unfortunate stubble, despite the tiny majority of trans people, don’t want her to run in and out of the restroom for a quick piss. I think it’d be helpful if they’re were some way to screen trans people for an extended period of time that would grant them access to the gendered spaces they identified with once approved.
Anyway, I don’t even believe that it’s a fear of being attacked or spied on. What of women that attack/prey on women that use our restrooms? Should lesbians that could literally care less about youre doing in the restroom be using the mens’ too? What of trans women being attacked in men’s restrooms? This isn’t a safety issue, I think it’s just transphobia.
I get that this view seems pretty far-left, but I think it’s wrong to write off an entire group of people that mean no harm as some sick creeps taking advantage of trans recognition.
No. 71011
>>71010gtfo of the thread. everything you've said is just shit rhetoric.
also, you like every other liberal sheep seems to think the issue is with being spied on by pervs when it's really a worry of rape, which is a power thing, so i don't doubt that those monsters would simply put on a wig and skirt if it means they'd have access to a woman alone in the bathroom.
fucking leave.
No. 71014
>>71010You might be incredibly far left leaning and supportive of trans rights, but believing in a destinction between real trans people that should be granted access and those that shouldn't is enough to have you branded a terf for "gatekeeping" etc. It's so frustrating
I believe the same as you and it's like my dreams of gender roles ever easing up are a pipe dream. I understand that it's not up to gender nonconforming individuals to bear the brunt of championing gender abolition and I don't get to dictate who is trans enough. I get is not ethical to expect people to risk their lives by just openly living outside of gender when they feel it's much safer to just become trans. However I wish that they would! I feel like the aggressiveness of the trans movement is reinforcing such stiff old fashioned gender roles that we're going back in time, and that voicing any gender critical thoughts has become suicide. I'm sick of hearing womanhood reduced to "I've just always liked skirts and lipstick.
No. 71017
>>71011>rapeMy point still stands
There’s a difference between a perv in a dress and a trans woman. Women also rape.
It still comes down to transphobia. You can not want rapists in your restroom obviously. I don’t want rapist in our restroom either. I could care less about a trans woman that just needs to take a piss.
Her trying to pee in a woman’s restroom won’t hurt you, but she’ll have hell trying to go the other route.
>>71014Yeah, it’s all really frustrating. I’ve been attacked on tumblr for mentioning stuff like this and it’s aggravating
I also know it’s hard for people to just wear what they wanted instead of attributing styles to a certain half of the population, but jeez, if no one does it it won’t become normal. It seems like a ridiculous thing to get riled up about, but that’s how it is. I think it’s changing though, the movement just moves like a glacier
>>71016I meant in an individual setting and the idea was idealistic. I wish there was such a way to allow them into those spaces seamlessly to make sure that they are who they say they are, but I certainly don’t know how to implement it.
I would think it’d be relatively simple treated the way any situation involving a suspicious person entering a restroom, though..
I’m sure it’d already be difficult to tell a trans woman from a woman other than looking slightly mannish. I mean, there are mannish women that I’m sure would feel offended if they were screamed at for being in a women’s restroom and I bet they’re more common than trans women entering them. I think that as long as they’re not inviting suspicion, it shouldn’t be a cause for concern. Trans women just aren’t that common anyway.
If someone was concerned about a suspicious person, it should be bought up with authorities. If it’s a guy in a skirt, then they’ll face consequences for intruding a womans’ space. If they’re trans, it shouldn’t be a problem.
We can’t distinguish female rapist from women, either, but we don’t have bouncers checking out every woman either. We should be focused on protecting women from rapists and pervs, not other women
It’d honestly be easier to make another restroom. Though it sounds like it’d be prone to hate crimes, Im sure there’d be shorter lines as a result.
No. 71022
>>71017>There’s a difference between a perv in a dress and a trans woman. Women also rape.About 1% of rapists are female, even less of that 1% rape other women, however trans-identifying males have the same SA rates as the other males. A real woman is also much less likely to be able to defend herself against a trans-identifying male than another woman because of biological differences. Lots of their fellow men can't, how the fuck do you expect us to?
Doesn't matter whether he "looks like a girl" or not he isn't one, he is a male and he does not belong in female spaces. Fuck off, cocksucker.
No. 71030
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No. 71031
>>71012>eating is a cultural/social thing I’m pretty sure it’s a “necessary for survival” thing actually, but you do you.
>eating meat more ingrained than genderMaybe if you’re from the West. Most of Asia ate a vegetarian diet for most of recorded history. But obviously the world doesn’t exist outside of Europe kek
Sage because I’m not getting into a pointless argument about a throwaway example.
No. 71042
>>71018The most recent changes in legislation in the US and Canada allowing people to change their sex designation on IDs and DLs does not require proof of sex or proof of transition. The sex designation is now self-designated.
Through legislation like this, the distinction between sex and gender is being abolished and the two terms conflated. Heretofore, the sex designation on identification has always referred to biological sex. Sex was considered an identifier.
Now there is a movement to allow self- and parental designation of sex on birth certificates.
No. 71045
>>71022Allowing people to self-designate their sex on government identification (conflating sex and gender) leads to police and media reporting of sex crimes to be misrepresentative and statistics on sex crimes to be skewed. Crimes committed by MtT who are legally designated as women are reported and counted as having been committed by women.
Should a MtT who assaults or rapes using his penis be considered a female sex offender?
No. 71047
File: 1512296887718.jpg (230.06 KB, 537x1920, tumblr_p0bpyyzNNA1r55eygo1_128…)
Just saw this post on tumblr and of course ALL the replies were about trans women getting uteri…
Yeah let's donate these organs to men who willigly destroyed their reproductive organs instead of, y'know, women born with conditions/who fell ill and as a result can't have children of their own…
Like, I would'nt have been mad if a couple of the replies were about "Great now trans women can get pregnant!!" but literally ALL of them were about trans women and none about cis women without uteri… trans women are so selfish.
No. 71051
>>71043>>71042Seeing shit like this reminds me of the time someone compared the whole trans debate to lobotomy - back in the day lobotomy was considered to be a cure-all treatment for difficult cases of mental issues, especially schizophrenia. After it was noted as a promising treatment with good results and an admirable survival rate, they started performing the procedure even on children. A few decades later meds for psychological conditions were developed and lobotomy was considered a dangerous, barbaric way of causing irreversible physical damage and non-satisfactory results.
It's a Federalist article (I know) but definitely worth the long read.
http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/29/10-ways-transgender-push-mirrors-lobotomy-craze/"This study analyzed the content of popular press articles on lobotomy between the years 1935 and 1960. Both a qualitative and quantitative analysis provided evidence that the press initially used uncritical and sensational reporting styles, with the content of articles on lobotomy becoming increasingly negative through time. The initial positive bias occurred despite opposing views in the medical community, which provided a basis for more balanced coverage. These findings support the theory that biased reporting in popular press articles may have been a factor influencing the quick and widespread adoption of lobotomy as a psychiatric treatment."
Sound familiar?
No. 71052
>>71045I know, it sucks. It doesn't matter whether the guy uses his penis or not, he shouldn't be considered a female sex offender because he
isn't one.
No. 71060
File: 1512318275823.jpg (8.13 KB, 265x275, nocorrelation.jpg)
>>71039>>71040>>71041Okay, I'll bite:
These posts make no sense, are you from /lgbt/? SOME lesbians (before you go #NotAllLesbians) are in fact unreasonably aggressive towards bisexuals, calling them scum, sluts, cocksuckers, saying that they should die etc. AND blame them for stuff that wasn't in any way their fault (just like you're doing now). Such behavior is creepy similar to what incels and robots do with women, and that's true. No one brought the trannies along, they butted in themselves.
No. 71063
>>71060how many times have i heard bis telling me i should die and suck dick because i am dried up dyke and if i had good dicking i wouldn't be such a bitch? how often i have heard that i am a rugmunching hairy cup drinking disgusting pervert from bis?
also the picture i posted shows how bis are the ones allying with trannies. bis who keep sucking tranny dick are the ones keeping up their delusion they should score with lesbians. bis are the people behind this heart not parts no ones genitals mean anything you should love to have sex with all genitals shit.
lmao piss off idiot incel = whiny baby who cries over not getting pussy which bis and trannies are doing. bis are constantly whining about lesbians not dating them because lesbians are elitist and biphobic for only wanting top date other lesbians.
No. 71069
>>71063>>71064So the women here who are bi and identify as radical feminists or who are at least gender critical are unicorns?
The last time I checked, I do not shit rainbows.
No. 71073
>>71063You… realize that LGBT communities as a whole ally with trannies, do you? Which includes gay and lesbians too. You're delusional.
Also, the ones saying "genitals don't mean anything" are pansexuals, not bisexuals.
>>71069This. Anons is clearly unwell in the head
No. 71077
>>71073>realize that LGBT communities as a whole ally with trannies, do you? Which includes gay and lesbians tooLOL No, we don't. Bs and Trannies attached themselves to the movement by force and have taken over all the LGBT organizations. There are no Gay or Lesbian voices in any LGBT~ media anymore. It's just straight men posing as trannies, bi women posing as lesbians and straight battered girls calling themselves kinky and queer.
Actual lesbians and gay men have been pushing to drop both B and T for ages now and we stay away from LGBT spaces.
No. 71091
>>71077LOL yes, you do.
Everything else you said is bullshit easily debunkable by checking into the first LGBT community in sight, or having just any experience with them.
I'd also add that bisexuals hardly have anything in common with trannies, but with a person who makes such ridiculous claims as the ones you made it would be utterly useless.
Do not bring that shit into this website, anyway
No. 71095
File: 1512407269963.png (216.37 KB, 393x391, 1504376352081.png)
>>71039>>71041>>71077>>71094>you are the troons of sexualities>you're in alliance with trannies>whining about how lesbians wont fuck you because of biphobia>the ones who don't believe in biological sex, the ones fucking trannies, and the ones shaming real lesbians for not fucking themTop kek, /lgbt/ spotted. Bring your conspiracy theories about bisexuals causing the plague with you and kindly return to your lesbot loony bin, please. We don't want that shit here
No. 71105
>>71104I believe they exist, if their are sexual people, they've got to be non-sexual ones. I don't think it's by default "special snowflake", the ones that make me roll my eyes though are the thousand variations for Grey-Asexual (do you really need that many labels?) And, Demisexual, that just sounds like friendship.
I understand identifying as both genders, but neither? I don't know.
No. 71108
>>71104I believe you can break up asexuals into 2 distinct groups:
1. Autistic people. A HUGE percentage of aces are on the spectrum. Autism and asexuality/low sex drive/sexual disinterest are often co-morbid.
2. Rape/abuse trauma survivors. It is completely legitimate that trauma survivors would be physically and/or psychologically adverse to sexual activity.
I know there are rare exceptions to this rule, but in my experience pretty much anyone who claims to be asexual without meeting one or both of the above criteria is almost certainly memeing for attention.
Agenderism is a weird one. Although the term itself is made up tumblr garbage, there are a few people out there who get surgeries to have no genetalia ("nullo" they're called). But I'm not sure if that warrants a whole new sexual identity or if it's just a subset of extreme bodily modification.
No. 71114
>>71104I don't think they really exist, I think the majority of asexuals are young people who are late bloomers and feel pressured by the heavy focus on sex in society to the point where they need to label themselves as devoid of any sexual feelings. Everyone has become so much more open about sex nowadays, and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it means that a lot of teens and young adults who haven't experienced any sexual attraction yet will feel even more abnormal and will flock to something to define themselves by. I used to think I was asexual for that very reason, and even today I still have a very low sex drive but I don't think it's possible to be completely asexual outside of medical issues.
And agenderism is just a self-esteem/identity finding thing that's popular among teens. I also used to think I was agender lmao, I was badly affected by tumblr stuff back in the day.
No. 71122
>>71121Since when? How can you acknowledge how shitty men are, yet still want to associate with them?
>>71095>>71119Samefagging to add that Bs really are the tranny cocksuckers. It's definitely not straights or gays, they don't want to fuck troons and if they did, they'd be bi. Bs tend to act like they speak for everybody in the lgb community too, a lot of them (but #notallofthem) are shit. Never been on /lgbt/ in my life, just saying.
No. 71133
>>71108Top comment, anon!
Asexuality may also result from a personality trait of a personality disorder such as Schizoid or Avoidant.
No. 71136
>>71134who?
>>71125>>71124>>71123I guess that came out wrong. I don't even remember what I was trying to say because I was tired when I wrote it, so my bad. Meant that part about Bs though.
No. 71148
>>71113Because it's thread derailment, retard. Look at the topic of the thread. Sperganon got literally
triggered by a days old post, who got their feefees hurt?
Also, you can stop agreeing with yourself now, "bisexual anon"
>>71146This.
>>71143How many times will you keep pretending to be different anons? Lmao "I've barely commented on this thread", embarrassing.
>>71104Agender is special snowflake label, but asexual, as other anons said, is a thing and is imputable to medical issues like depression, autism, ADHD etc.
No. 71200
File: 1512578726509.png (352.46 KB, 700x500, trans.png)
It's sad that women are putting the blame on each other. I'm bi and I think lesbians can be unnecessarily hostile sometimes. But I also get that lesbians are tired of being told they need to be inclusive of males.
I used to believe that everyone was at least a bit bi and I think many bisexuals continue to believe that. Making LGB more inclusive and redefining it as "queer" has enabled trans activism. Everyone has to be included in everything. That's how we've ended up with male lesbians. But we shouldn't blame each other.
There are reasonable transsexuals too who can be allies like Miranda Yardley for example:
http://mirandayardley.com/en/transwomen-are-not-women/Most trans activists have decided to blame women for their problems and now women are blaming each other too but the real problem has always been male violence. Trans activists spend all their time attacking "TERFs" when it's men who are murdering trans people. Let's not do the same thing and stop blaming each other.
No. 71205
>>71200>it's men who are murdering trans peopleThis. For everything I know a TERF has never actually hurt a trans person. TERFs just want a women-only feminism, they're not beating trannies down the street, murdering them or taking their rights away. So why all this "Le punch TERFs tehehe" bs when there's men actually murdering them?
I'm afraid the answer would be "Because they're still woman hating pricks who wouldn't stand a fight with another man, but are cowardly enough to assault women"
>>71201They can have it bad, especially in third world countries where you hear of trannies being killed in gruesome ways almost everyday, but the same happens to women in those places so it's not very telling. Trannies face problems, but it's trans related problems. Unless they're 100% passing I doubt any of them can actually experience misogyny.
No. 71293
>>71291And now an increasing faction of transtrender activists claim that they do not experience dysphoria and that dysphoria is not a criteria for being transgender.
The increase in people medically transitioning without the psych evaluations that were a prerequisite in the past or even a DSM 5 diagnosis of dysphoria is due to the informed consent model of care being replaced by the gatekeeping model in recent years. These are the people who end up detransitioning.
Medical journal reading:
http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2016/11/sect1-1611.htmlOp-ed reading:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/03/11/transgender_patients_and_informed_consent_who_decides_when_transition_treatment.htmlMeanwhile, the transsexual separatists who identify as suffering from Harry Benjamin Syndrome (which is not a medically recognised condition) appear to be declining in numbers. This may be because they are older and are dying off. But they were never particularly vocal or activist in the first place because they desire to be private.
No. 71357
File: 1512946215192.png (38.5 KB, 663x372, transtypes.png)
https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/This is a long article but worth it imo. It explains the different types of gender dysphoria. Most people involved in the discussion haven't got a clue and follow trans activists in a misguided attempt to be progressive.
There are three main types:
> gender non-conforming children who will most likely grow up to be gay> adult men who get aroused by the fantasy of being a woman> troubled teenage girls (but also some boys) who get wrapped up in the current transgender craze No. 71379
>>70971Oh my God of course a man insisting he has a lady-essence and everyone needs to respect that or they're a bigot has a psychological issue. And often AGP. Nothing sociological or economical about it.
Sure there is a sociological aspect to trannies, if people grow up hearing 'toy trucks are for boys' and they like to trucks a girl might conclude she's a boy. But it's still a psychological issue when she's pathologically dissatisfied with her own healthy female body or when she feels like killing herself b/c others don't regard her as something she's not (male/a man).
> Both cis and trans people are people with social issues with gender roles (ie. division of labour between genders)if cis ppl had social issues with gender roles they wouldn't be cis.
By definition cis means you're happy with your gender assigned at birth.
Which is why it's such bullshit when trannies call women 'cis'. Or when they insist radfems are closeted transmen because they're not happy facing sexism.
No. 71381
File: 1512983706935.png (34.97 KB, 584x533, TERFs.png)
Reminder that this is your typical peace-loving pro lgbtq feminist
No. 71387
>>71357kek they really nailed it
it's sad to see so many women going along with the "trans women are women" thing because they "feel like a woman" when at its very premise they have no way to know what it feels like to BE a woman, it's just a fantasy
No. 71389
>>71293This is why I can't support trans activism anymore.
>informed consentAnyone who believes that it's possible to change a person's sex is very obviously uninformed.
>many centers that provide hormone replacement therapy (HRT), including the Planned ParenthoodI'm not American but I thought PP was meant to be a health care provider for women? Why are they even involved in this? Why does everyone have to cater to transwomen?
>de-medicalize the experience of transgender individualsPeople who transition rely on medical treatment for life. How can this possibly be de-medicalised? Later on, the article compares it to erectile dysfunction, so when it's convenient it's a medical issue again. Never mind that erectile dysfunction can be observed while gender dysphoria can't because trans activists oppose having any objective criteria. Also, Viagra isn't permanant like gender reassignment.
>>71386The worst part is how activists drag children into this. Gender dysphoria in children is linked with adult homosexuality rather than adult transsexualism. Enabling these children is gay conversion therapy yet LGBT activists are cheering it on.
No. 71397
>>71386>why is this crap so prevalent in USA? it's like americans don't want to believe anything.It's because America doesn't have a tax-funded medicare like some other countries do, their medical trends are driven by money. If enough people are made to believe they're trans, they come for the certain clinics and practitioners to seek help. And pay them lots of money. If the word spreads that one clinic is easier on the hormone/SRS treatments, the word spreads and they make more money. If people are made more aware of transgenderism, they will start thinking they need the expensive treatments too. There's nothing more complicated to it.
>>71389And according to studies, 90% of the children grow eventually out of it. And according to another study, transgenderism strongly correlates with autism who are prone to hyperfixation, in this case their gender. Kids with OCD has been found to have the same symptoms. And these crazy ass parents are starting to socialize their kids as the opposite gender when they want to play with the "wrong kind" of toys as a 2-year old.
No. 71398
>>71389americans also still routinely circumcise infants and children with 'issues' without consent or even parental consent, and act as if it's no big deal. so i am not surprised they're fine with roping this gender stuff into the mix since they're already actively mutilating gentials on unwilling minors and uninformed parents. iirc they used to 'gender' intersex people without even parental consent until the 80s or 90s and wouldn't even tell them their kid was intersex at all.
i also agree that it's the same as conversion therapy. i am having a hard time understanding the trans platform anymore.
>sex is defined by gender and gender roles>but you can be the wrong gender somehow too>but gender and sex are connectedi don't get it.
No. 71415
>>71293Samefag. That should have read:
The increase in people medically transitioning without the psych evaluations that were a prerequisite in the past or even a DSM 5 diagnosis of dysphoria is due to the informed consent model of care replacing the gatekeeping model in recent years.
No. 71539
File: 1513345457323.png (2.48 KB, 418x66, you dense motherfucker.PNG)
>>71522
Happy to hear, it's always good to know a few men are still sane
I used to go on tumblrinaction a lot to see the dumb SJW bullshit but lately everyone in there seems to be TERF-hating and trans-loving. And they have no fucking idea what the fuck they're talking about, pic related.
If anyone needs any more proof that trans is misogynistic as fuck, look at the people who are in favor of it. Even men who "hate all SJWs equally" will still defend trannies because a man is a man is a man.
No. 71955
Posted this elsewhere but I think a copy here would be good
>Does it boil down to "I find trannys disgusting and probably most women are like me, so therefore I actually have a good reason to demand that transvestites are banned from AGDQ"?No it boils down to the fact that trannys are disgusting, awful people throwing their fetish in everyone's face. That kind of bullshit should not be welcome at GDQ. I honestly wonder if all trans support is simply a façade to prevent twitter lynching from other mentally ill retards.
https://imgur.com/a/kHOjXhttps://clips.twitch.tv/GrotesqueStrangeButterShadyLuluhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WotPzG2nysAlso want to point out that I am certainly not a 'radical' feminist, but I subscribe to Trans-Exclusionary Feminism (Why does everything have to be so extreme politically these days?)
No. 72294
File: 1514634331609.png (63.59 KB, 316x202, 1464363094541.png)
Someone in another thread said Magdalen Berns isn't going to make it much longer from her cancer, can anyone confirm?
No. 72296
File: 1514635274461.jpg (112.62 KB, 983x800, 1513556762146.jpg)
Is anyone else convinced that it's mostly anime that's causing this shit?
No. 72451
>>72450In the real world outside of radical feminist groups, it's still not going to gain any acceptance. Even the term radical feminist drives people away.
Most people don't spend their time thinking or obsessing over trannies, it's fair to say that most terfs think about trannies more than trannies think about themselves.
All I'm saying is good luck gaining any mainstream acceptance when you offer no real solutions and the TERF community, isn't going to do anything or try to make any real changes other than complain on corners of the internet.
No. 72453
>>72452You're right, your biggest allies are evangelicals and neo-nazis. You better hope their base keeps going strong.
All other feminist groups have people in academia which can influence people, good luck getting a TERF professor into any non-religious privately funded right wing college, who doesn't immediately raise concerns with the administration about their academic reliability or credibility.
Yes, I believe in having a "conversation" but if your idea of a conversation involves circlejerking on the internet, it's not going to get anywhere. You're called "Bigots" because most people don't care and think that thinking about transgender people and portraying them the way that you're trying to is a bit silly at the least, bigoted at the most.
No. 72455
>>72454I'm not going to argue with you since there's really no point, I just came here to laugh at TERFs online, but those types of arguments are why you'll never gain any acceptance among anyone who's not prone to fearmongering tactics with and who aren't socially isolated from the real world, people will find them ridiculous.
Just came to primarily point out that you'll never gain mainstream acceptance or have any real societal impact.
No. 72460
>>72458You do know that my main purpose is to laugh at you, correct. If personal attacks and false statements is your idea of a "discussion", then that's probably why the real world outside of the internet finds you insane.
I like most people who have ran across a terf have even given up trying to have a "discussion" or any sort of discourse online since anytime anyone does it always ends up with them resorting to personal attacks when they don't have an argument, and I'm not going to change any of their minds.
I'm headed out, have a good night and I hope you all had a happy new years. Don't go outside or the trannies will eat you.
No. 72463
>>72462Obviously, not true. We sometimes call our vaginas pussy, especially when being sarcastic.
Headed out for real, probably won't respond to more attacks on if "You're a man, or calling me a tranny, tranny lover, etc", so you can spare the effort or not, doesn't matter to me.
No. 72464
>>72455Most people are too polite to say that they agree one hundred percent with other women when it comes to tranny fetishists. My aunt went into a bathroom in Florida recently at a Marshall's to keep an eye on my niece because one of you loser faggots was cooing while adjusting his tuck, and making eye contact with all the women at the sink. She's a big ass butch who doesn't take too much shit from anyone.
I guess you can probably expect how well it went for your tranny friend.
You are delusional. You will never be anything but a dude. If you're a woman, enjoy your status as sub par. Either way, you're an idiot.
No. 72475
File: 1514831039505.gif (4.03 MB, 480x270, 1465797690_giphy.gif)
>>72457>I have a vagina and I was born with a pussy.kek whatever you say faggot
No. 72609
>>72603Omg anon, I'm so sorry, that sounds horrible. I don't know how to handle the situation where there's uncertainty of if someone is a male or an actual woman who looks like a male but i have been thinking and a security checkpoint in women's restrooms in highly populated areas where they check if there is any concerns to see if you have a penis or a vagina. There could be a room that people go to attached to the restroom but is seperate that you have to enter where a female can check in a private enviroment before allowing you into the restroom.
What are the thoughts on that suggestion? that way biological women don't get mistaken for men and men have to use their own restroom.
It may be a dumb idea but just something I thought.
No. 72612
>>72610Im going to guess that its a dumb idea then. It was just something I considered to avoid the problem with biological women being mistaken as men because it maybe a problem since I have seen some women at times often middle aged or androgynous women where im unsure at times.
I would be willing to go through a checkpoint if it helps improve saftey and keep men out but I was thinking it sounded dumb but would be a possible option.
No. 72623
>>72611I'm not against a woman being non-confirming at all, but I have concerns that gay men will see women being non-confirming and be like "Well, these people are allowed to push past gender boundaries, it's okay for me to too."
I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong but I don't want men to think that it's okay for them to wear a dress because non-gender confirming lesbians are trying redefine what gender means to them.
I think its better to avoid being gender non-confirming and be comfortable in your own gender then encouraging men to think its okay to be gender non-confirming and act feminine. Like, why do they have to define themselves as gender non-confirming anyway, can't they just be a lesbian who wears shirts and pants?
I'm not against it for women, I'm just concerned that gay men will think it's okay to be gender non-confirming if we allow women to be too gender nonconfirming because "women can do it, why can't we do it too?"
No. 72627
>>72623you make some good points anon, but the thing is that we need to find some way to say that it's okay for women to avoid being confined into gender norms and gender roles without having men think that its okay to act "feminine", wear a dress, call themselves a woman, or expect others to call themselves a woman.
how can we find some way to allow women to be gender nonconfirming while telling men that they should be happy with being a man? I dont want men to feel like its okay for them to wear makeup or dresses, or feel comfortable expressing gender norms that women should be able to as much as anyone else here, but i don't want to have women feel like they should be confined to their gender.
I dont want to tell men that its okay to be comfortable being a male because of toxic masculinity which is problemetic but i dont want them to be comfortable wearing a dress either.
No. 72628
>>72623>>72627Oh the horror of… men wearing dresses? I think you've missed the point of why
most people who are critical of trans ideology are against men calling themselves women.
No. 72630
>>72628I'm a TERF because I'm against men wearing dresses too. Most of us are and we don't want to put up with that deviance.
Do you really want to start saying that it's okay for a man to wear a dress? No. We need to stop encouraging this behavior and if you think that it is okay then you're probably part of the problem.
Do you really think the TERF movement is going to be accepting and start saying and agreeing that men can wear dresses. No men who do are freaks who shouldn't have a place in society. That argument has no place here.
No. 72632
>>72628If you don't want to be part of the problem then we need to stop telling men that that type of behavior is okay. They can be a gay male, and if they aren't comfortable just being a gay male and need to be gender nonconfirming then its too bad for them because it has no place.
Be okay with being a male or be shunned is what I believe as having them be nonconfirming is exactly what the problem is and its more than having them believe and call themselves a woman.
No. 72638
>>72635If you want to start telling men that it's okay for them to wear a dress then go ahead, but I highly doubt that you'll find much agreement in this thread or find people who think allowing men to wear a dress is an important issue.
Not
>>72630, but come on, arguing that it's okay to encourage men to do behavior that is encouraging them to think it's okay to do
problematic behavior in a TERF thread? You need to take a step back and look at where you're posting.
If allowing men to wear dresses is leading them to believe that they're a woman and try to get into women's spaces, then I'm against encouraging trannies too by trying to tell them that it's okay.
No. 72645
>>72644They already have their own movements, its the job for Incels and mens rights activists, you know, their own groups that focus on MEN, not us.
They need to start telling their own groups to dismantle their gender roles and help men because its not the responsibility of feminism to focus on benefiting men, and especially not focus on MEN over WOMEN.
No. 72650
>>72628>>72635LMFAO.
I'm completely sure that TERFs will agree with you that we should encouraging the delusions of mentally ill men by allowing them to wear dresses any day now, just annnnnnny day.
GTFO to /lgbt/ or /r9k/ or wherever you came from tranny and stay off our forum. If you haven't this is /g/, which is for girls, not men who think they're girls.
No. 72683
>>72674tbh, c and a little bit of d is why I do it, because I am an awful person (obviously also why I enjoy spending time on /pt/ and /snow/).
I just wonder how many of the other commenters have the same motivation and outwardly we're just all great supporters and trans allies. I would feel worse for them, but honestly most current young MTFs are basically the Weis Market shooter.
No. 72788
I sometimes lurk some guy I know irl's twitter because I'm curious, and usually he just retweets things about drag queens and popular singers. I found out he retweeted this recently:
https://twitter.com/ztsamudzi/status/948248853165129728Now if you read just the headline and the tweet, you'd think that the woman was just having some simple procedure and didn't want a transwoman nurse to examine her for, idk, a cold or something simple like that. But the patient had an appointment for a pap smear and asked for a female nurse in advance (as in, an actual woman) and the transwoman apparently didn't even try to pass for a woman. And people are shitting all over her for being distressed?
Wtf, as a kid I used to be hospitalized very often for a bunch of reasons and I knew I could requests only female nurses because I was uncomfortable around men and even boys my age, so I did. And here the patient decided to straight up not do the pap smear instead of being done with it. But imagine for some women who don't know you can request a female nurse or doctor for such intimate procedures, wouldn't they force themselves to be uncomfortable in the same situation, since the nurse refused to listen to the patient? It pisses me off. Imagine being seen as a bigot because you don't want a man or a transwoman to check your genitals to the point where you have to cancel your appointment. Anyway, the guy was unprofessional regardless of the situation.
Of course the guy who retweeted this is a white gay man who won't stop talking about social justice , racism and feminism. It's not like he could understand why women would only want female nurses and doctors to do these sort of procedures, since it has nothing to do with him. Now I can only see him as a sexist guy who tries too hard to be seen as a feminist, since he think women shouldn't choose how their medical procedures should be done and shouldn't be listened to.
It's the first time I post in this thread and I have a lot of other things to say but I'll stop here, I'm so tired I'm not very coherent rn.
>>72787I've seen people say that if some guy is trans and hasn't cut off his dick yet, then his dick is biologically a female body part. So they'll find a way to be pissed or to "reclaim" the term.
No. 72799
File: 1515087711095.png (225.85 KB, 344x638, 1513705569849.png)
>>72623>>72630>>72632>>72685>Be against patriarchal gender roles and toxic masculinity>Support patriarchal gender roles and toxic masculinityAre you retarded? Legitimately seek a chromosome test.
No. 72806
>>72788The comments disgust me to no end; there nearly all in favor of the nurse?!
All this MtF claiming that they've seen many women with more stubble, deeper voices etc than them. And all those 'cis' dotcors who distressed them…
But of course then feelings of men masquerading as women are more important than the well being of a patient; who knows, maybe that patient is a rape victim and that's why she's scared of men, even the ones who are 'women'…
No. 72808
>>72803I think they are confusing exclusivity with privileged - the word is thrown around so fucking much this doesn't surprise me.
Absolutely retarded opinion though - by that logic, women shouldn't be allowed to wear trousers as those are a men's "privileged".
No. 72818
>>72815No offense anon but there's no need for trying to rationalize men trying to wear dresses. You're on a TERF form on an anonymous chan, you don't need to try to be politically correct and try to pass on that "nobody cares if men wear dresses" bullshit.
I mean, if you're trying to defend your views to the public, it's convenient and one thing, but most of us don't want men wearing dresses and we don't want them in our community, see it in public, etc.
While for some it's not an issue worthy of our attention, we, overall, have negative opinions of crossdressers and men wanting to crossdress for good reason, I don't want us to feel like we have to pretend we do because some tranny robots may see it and post to /r9k/ screaming about how it's "unfair".
Let's move on from the topic of men wearing dresses because the issue is determined. If you aren't against it (the movement as a whole is), it's not an issue that we should be fighting for or shitting up the thread with.
No. 72821
>>72819We're against gendered clothing for women, we can wear whatever the fuck we want.
We don't want it to be okay for a man to feel like he wants to wear a dress or put on makeup and be able to work in a daycare taking care of kids.
Gendered clothing is stupid, but it doesn't mean we want men to wear dresses because who honestly wants to see that creepiness be allowed in our society. The only gender norms we're interested in tackling involving them is toxic masculinity, nothing more, nothing less.
Otherwise thinking that we should be focusing on anything else in terms of societal gender difference that benefit men, but have no benefit to women is of no interest to us. We're getting rid of gender for women so they aren't stuck in their gender, for men, our interest is just teaching them not to rape and discouraging values that teach toxic masculinity, not getting rid of rigid gender norms involving men past that.
No. 72824
>>72823I just contributed to the topic I'm only
>>72821 and
>>72818, not the other posters. I dont want it to catch on in radfem circles, but I'm saying that we should stop talking about it because allowing men to wear dresses is something a lot of us agree with and getting rid of gendered clothing is one thing but were just not at that point at this time where we agree with getting rid of if it or at all if it will lead to more perverts crossdressing.
Lets move on from talking about men identified male crossdressers because its not an important topic that is worthy of this much space in the thread and i don't want people to think it is.
No. 72829
Do you guys think that being TERF = gender critical?
What bothers me most is that all trans narratives that tries to alienate women are by MtF. Of course most of FtM wouldn't do something like that even tho some of them hate being born as a women but they lived enough as a women to know the struggle. It all comes to male entitlement.
>>70971Underrated post.
No. 72837
>>72836gender critical has to do with binary (and biology kek) and denounces trans as mental and intersex/hermaphrodites as deformed (which medically they are). they don't believe in trans, and if they do, they class it as a social or mental disorder. gender is used to express the binary, not gender roles (as some anons seem adamant about).
terfs could care less about trans people as long as they stay in their corner, despite terf being used as a derogatory term for trans people who get pissy that someone has any opinion they dislike.
No. 72838
>>72837sage for samefag, but deformities and mental illnesses are not insults, and people who try to silence gender critical feminists often try to assert a negative connotation towards both terms.
needless to say both terfs and gcf are against any form of trans person being in feminism, womens spaces etc.
No. 72842
>>72837Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you, your wording is imprecise. Could you paraphrase with more care?
>>72836As I understand GCFs are critical of the concept of binary gender which is a social construct used to oppress women as the class of sexual, reproductive and domestic service on the basis of their biology. There is no such thing an innate gender identity (that comes with stereotypically gendered behaviours and preferences), but it is a role imposed by socialization. Therefore gender should be abolished and people should be free to express their personality (rather than gender identity) however they wish. Arguably this would be a secondary goal after our resulting from the physical and economic liberation of women. GCFs feel that current transactivism is reactionary in that it reinforces the notion that people are born with the predisposition for a certain binary social role (lady brain).
No. 72899
>>72898Won't be long before bisexuals will be called transphobic for only finding people in the gender binary sexually attractive. Or has it already happened?
In b4
>how can you write off all trans people, maybe you'll find one to fall in love with!Sounds eerily like
>lesbians, how can you write off all men like that, maybe you'll find one to fall in love with! No. 72934
>>72821If gendered clothing was gone, how would it be creepy for a man to wear a dress?
It wouldn't be women's clothing any more.
No. 72935
I know it depends on countries and all that but one thing I hate is seeing trans people wanting to transition for free even though it's not necessary for their physical or mental health, meanwhile I had to pay just to check if I had high risks of getting a hereditary disease that would completely fuck up my entire life and that is ruining my mother's life.
I also see some of them asking to get hormones for free and without any doctors' authorisation, and yet when I had to receive a growth hormone treatment that was, again, NECESSARY for my health, I had to go to the hospital several times a month for years before, during and after the treatment in my childhood to see the results and side effects,as well as adjust the daily dose I was receiving. Why do they think they're so special that they shouldn't be treated like patients by doctors? Do they think their hormone treatment is as simple as just injecting some of it in their body and be done with it? What a bunch of spoiled idiots.
>>72899It's already happening. I remember some years ago on tumblr when people were saying that bisexuals should call themselves pansexuals to be inclusive of trans people or they're transphobic. Then I started seeing people saying that THIS was transphobic because transwomen are women and the distinction shouldn't exist, that people being bi wasn't transphobic because they tried to change the definition of the word, and that being pan was something different as well (as in, ppl are into every genders instead of being into men and women, cis and trans). Shit was weird, because despite this, these same people kept being biphobic.